I am very proud of your words. I STAND BESIDE YOU!

When Olivia joins us in this world, she's got a good Dad waiting for her.

I STAND BESIDE YOU!

Well said, Scott! I stand with you, too.

I, too, stand beside you.

nicely stated. i stand with you, and a lot of others do too.

if you haven't, you should read the source, by james michener. it's the story of israel from cavemen times until about 1975. it sounds like you probably have tho.

Thank you so very much for this. Thank you for laying it out in words. It frustrates me that a lot of this history gets swept under the carpet. That there are people who have no idea why the state of Israel was founded, let alone what happened during world war II when millions upon mullions of people [not just jews, anyone who did not fit into the aryan ideal] where murdered, tortured, starved...

I to stand beside you.

I also stand with you, and stand with Israel.

Sign me up for standing,too.Nicely done.

Thank you.

I'm standing with you.

And putting you on my list of links.

DF

I'm proud to stand with you, Scott.

I'm there. Any recommendations on actions for denizens of the blogosphere? What pressure points exist where an ordinary citizen who is about fed up with the slaughter of Israelis by the spiritual siblings of the 9/11 scum, might apply a few blows with the Cluebat (apologies to the Emperor)?

Well said and well argued. I stand with you.

Thank you, Scott.

I found a link to your article on IsraPundit (http://israpundit.com) and I am very happy I did. You have a great piece there, and I hope that BWB reads it.

Crystal clarity
I doubt the case can be stated any better

Thank you. I'm very moved by this.

Me to, thank you.

Israel does not stand alone, not while we draw breath.

That's beautiful.

I can't write like that, so I'm glad you can.

That brought tears to my eyes. I, too stand with you.

Amen

well said indeed.

Excellent piece - you have enlightened me. I hope it gets through some thick heads!

The Palestinian cause offends me as a historian. The strategies they use offend me as a military historian. Their constant lies, VERIFIED as lies, offend me as a rational person, and the brutal inhumanity, like when they scour cars for human remains, offends me as a human being.

If those Idiotarian shits want to know what THIS "poor, oppressed brown person" thinks, I SAY we should stand with the brave, hard-working, and KIND AS HELL Israelis!

I'm with you too, man.

As an Israeli, I thank you for your words... as I know many Israelis will if/when they find and read you. Words like yours will make us stronger.

Your commentary is outstanding, you make all Arkansans proud.

Darrell
Atkins, Arkansas

Thank you, Scott. I, too, stand with you.

I keep finding good links since writing on this myself. If more people would realize the Arabs (and I lump them all in together) goal is, has been, and has never changed, to destroy Israel. That is not peace, that is genocide. We must not allow that to happen and we need to stand by Israel.

Must link post.

Right on. How can any one who affirms the beauty of existence support those nihilsts who value neither their own life nor anybody else's?

Everyone in my family and all my friends stand with you too.Israel has many friends here in central Florida.Thanks for sharing with us Scott. ;0)

Damn good post. Thanks. We stand together shoulder to shoulder, and we are many. God Bless

"If you don't agree with the sentiments above I want you to read the rest of this very slowly. I want you to understand how stupid and ignorant you are. "

Now that's persuasive writing - turning your audience against you by insulting them right off the bat! However good the rest of any writing following a sentiment like that might be, its effectiveness is severely compromised by the initial declaration of antipathy toward the reader. One winds up being sorely tempted to dimiss anything you might say after "if you don't already agree with me, you suck," on general principle. Good job there.
I agree with your general points in this case but find the way you chose to preface them absolutely vomitous. If you carry on like this, you're making things worse for any cause you might happen to embrace.

I'm standing!

I stand with you and Israel.

All it takes for Evil to triumph is for Good men to do nothing.

You've never been less alone, Scott.

I also stand with you.

Scott:

Thanks.

Alex Gray:

Every single word in your comments reveals your solidarity with every history-revising idiotarian who ever vomited out an anti-Semitic lie. You "agree with your general points..."? How gracious of you, pukka sahib.

If I were Scott, I'd have expanded on the paragraph that so offends your tender, monster-appeasing sensibilities: "Enough. You've lied and killed and supported liars and killers. It's time for you to shut up and listen, because you and your murderous ilk refuse to treat honorably and genuinely with people with whom you disagree. Child-murderers don't deserve civil discourse, and neither do those who make excuses for them. In light of history, in light of everything you and your supporters have done to pervert and destroy everything that is noble and good that comes from MY culture, I no longer owe you the opportunity to be treated as a civilized entity. If you are so far gone that you don't understand the genesis and underpinnings of the World War on Israel, the only thing left for a half-educated creature like you is a good slap in the face to bring you to your senses - if you have any."

Namby-pamby panderers like you who refuse to face facts do nothing but undermine the people who stand between you and hold a candle against the Islamofascist dark.

What's your point here, Alex? Did he stop YOU from reading the rest of the essay? Why are you so protective of the feelings of people who are on the wrong side of this fight and of history? I'll tell you what's vomitous - your insistence that reasonable people might disagree with Scott, and that an opportunity is lost to persuade them otherwise.

STFU, Alex. Ibrahim Hooper is looking for a few good apologists. Why not go spew on the CAIR site, and quit polluting the blogosphere with your cowardly equivocations?

Well spoke, Scott. I stand beside you.

Your essay contains lots of useful history, and mercifully avoids pleading the case for Israel on the grounds that God gave my ancestors that land, but it betrays no sympathy whatsoever for the Palestinian Arabs, or any plan for dealing with these folks who on top of everything else have been cursed with terrible, violent leadership and allies. Standing with Israel is fine, but what are the solutions over there? Do you stand with Israel in its West Bank settlements, too?

sorry, my correct url link

I stand beside you, Scott.

I stand with all who stand with Israel. I stand with all who stand against inversionist history.

Scott,

Well said! I'm not a Jew but I've been to Israel and greatly admired it. I've also been to numerous other Arab countries and wouldn't give you a plugged nickel for them.

After yet one more of the innumerable terrorist acts the Pal murderers have committed, I called the Israeli Embassy and asked to speak to a military attache. I apologized for taking his time, since I knew he had to be busy, but I told him I had to call someone on the sharp end and thank them, as an average American citizen, for standing so strongly on the front lines of what was also OUR fight.

Whoever I spoke to was very gracious and thanked me sincerely, remarking that telephone calls like that meant a lot not only to him personally but to the State of Israel. I'm glad he thought so. Standing beside those people is not just an obligation, it is an honor. May they always prevail.

Your essay was passed to me by one who cares deeply and understands fully that Israel/US is not the problem. The problem is that the world once again stands at the brink of annihilation at the hands of extremists who instead of helping their people wish to destroy the world. As in the past, Israel/Jews are only the beginning.

" ... and then they came for me."

Thank you Scott for your thoughtfulness, understanding, eloquence and support.

Your essay was passed to me by one who cares deeply and understands fully that Israel/US is not the problem. The problem is that the world once again stands at the brink of annihilation at the hands of extremists who instead of helping their people wish to destroy the world. As in the past, Israel/Jews are only the beginning.

" ... and then they came for me."

Thank you Scott for your thoughtfulness, understanding, eloquence and support.

This wonderful piece has been printed and posted in several locations where I hope it can do some good. Bravo Zulu!

I have no sympathy left for the Palestinians.

They could have lived peacefully alongside their Jewish neighbors, and the nation of Israel would never have been created by the UN. They chose not to.

They could have formed their own state in 1947, one which not only was uniquely Muslim in character, but also would have been free to exclude Jews from its borders. They chose not to.

They could, even now, end the entire conflict and receive a state of their own, and even become an equal trading partner with Israel, simply by abandoning their devotion to the slaughter of Jews and the destruction of Israel. They have, again, chosen not to.

The article actually gives a perfectly accurate description of the Palestinian's story, and fully documents their side of the issue. The only reason anyone would disagree with it is if they ignored all the Palestinians' actions, and chose only to believe the lies they tell.

The Palestinian side is that they want Israel destroyed. They care about nothing else. That is their side of the story.

Scott,

Your sentiments and those of the others who have posted are very much appreciated.

That was an incredible essay. Ever read "Winds of War" by Herman Wouk? Well, that book and this essay are the two most laudable pieces on Israel I've read. I support the Israelis, for their courage, for their individualism, determination and strength. Israel exists as the world's lone Jewish nation, and so unfortunately, is surrounded by a sea of Arab hatred. The "Palestinians" are a lie as a separate national entity. How are they different from the Jordanians or Syrians? Why won't these Arab nations, part of the Muslim brotherhood, accept these homogenous additions to their lands? Israel, though it faces huge odds, and should be the underdog, is restrained by western conscience, not applicable to Arabs. Every time the Arabs have faced modern Israel on the battlefield, they have been destroyed, no matter how unequal the terms were in their favor. Pathetic for a warrior heritage, just like suicide bombing. I would let Israel loose, and watch the Arabs tremble over all they've said. Palestine is an excuse, and would not satisfy them anyway.

Excellent essay. And I'm sick and tired of the "but don't you feel for the Palestinians?" whine which usually follows any strong statement of support for Israel. I have no feelings for people who dance in the streets when innocents die; who reveal in poll after poll that they would like the entire region of Israel free from Jews, thank you very much. I have no sympathy for a people lost in a death-seeking pathology of hate and violence, raising their very children to carry guns and bombs and cheering them into death. Who support their leadership, corrupt, dictators who hide millions in "aid" while allowing thousands of people to fester in bad housing, with bad schools and bad health care, because they can't be bothered to fix their own society while they have strength to attack Israel. Sympathy for a people who have been used as pawns for three-four generations now, by their own Arab and Muslim "brethren" who don't allow them to be citizens in their own countries, but send them platitudes and checks when the mood strikes them?
No.
I eagerly await the Palestinian state, so that when they foolishly attack Israel for the last time, Israel can declare war and show them the real meaning of shock and awe. But of course, Arafat and his cronies won't ever allow that. They would prefer to continue to send their deluded murderers bravely into malls and restaurants and buses to kill bubbes and zaydes and teenagers and babies.
I stand by Israel.

I stand with you.

Tatterdemalion: You make excellent points, and I wonder if shame is not a factor in this implacable hatred. Remember that Arab society is a "face" society, and any Palestinians who really know their own history know that they owe their situation largely to cowardice, their own or their parents.

David Pryce-Jones is author of "The Closed Circle," an excellent analysis of Arab culture. During the wars that followed the establishment of Israel, as a young British army officer he was present as an observer. After the Israeli victory, he was astonished at how many Arab villages he found abandoned. Entire populations fled into Jordan and Syria, before they had seen so much as one Israeli soldier.

So that's where the Palestinians come from. They are the people who were so terrified of what victorious, armed Jews MIGHT do to them that they ran away. That's a powerful burden of guilt, and probably fuels their hatred of Israelis.

And what of the Arabs who didn't flee, who had the nerve to stay? They were greeted with open arms by the new Israelis, and made full citizens of the new country. FULL citizens, who regularly vote their representatives into the Knesset according to their numbers. Representatives who routinely tell Sharon to his face that he's a butcher for what he's doing to the Palestinians. And Sharon, instead of having them shot like Arafat would, listens more or less politely, because he understands that as a democratic leader, enduring insults graciously is part of his job.

Yet another reason to stand with Israel. As do I, Scott, along with you.

We stand with you, Scot and all of the others before us here.

We stand with you, Scot and all of the others before us here.

I stand with you. Well said.

Well spoken! Apparently the "Hamas" leadership will accept nothing less than geonocide as a solution to their problems. Sad situation.
If the palestinians do find leadership that favors peace, and that leadership doesn't get shot by Hamas, a future could be found for them that doesn't require martyrdom.

Excellent essay.

BUT there are at least two historical errors; one is essentially irrelevent to the arguement, but the other is important.

1) Great Britain devised the original plan to partition Palestine (which included Isreal, West Bank, Gaza and all of present day Jordan) along the Jordan River into a Jewish state "Palestine" (all lands west of the Jordan River, and "Transjordan", (that land across the river to the east).
Eventually the partition of the new Palestine was further partitioned into "Isreal" (Jewish) and "Palestine" (Arab).
A nit-picky point perhaps. So be it.

But here's the good one:

2) You wrote: "When the Israelis handed them their heads the Arabs annexed whatever bits of land they could grab for their own countries..."

But Israel COULD HAVE ANNEXED those lands if they wanted to! The Arab axis was roundly defeated, they couldn't have stopped it. And the UN would probably have had not much to say about at the time -- I mean, Israel (a country recognized immediately by President Truman) was attacked, and if any country was to administer the remainder it may as well be the victor.

But Israel was satisfied to merely defend the lands ear-marked to Israel by the UN partition plan, and NOT to claim -- or even occupy -- the lands reserved for "Palestine".

After the war most Arabs in Palestine assumed that Israel would claim the entire tract and began to emigrate to Transjordan. But Israel said "no, we are not interested in conquest. We want to live in peace, with Palestine, with the borders we agreed to at the UN."

Well done.

I too, stand with you and with Israel.

I truly wish they would accept a sort of 'Abe Lincoln Brigade' and just turn us loose.

Orion

How Wonderfully stated. I am proud to stand with you!

Yow... that's a GREAT essay. Puts all the truth into one nice, well-written, understandable essay. :)

I am proud to stand with you Scott.
I read the true history of Isreal years ago when I was much younger. I have always admired the Isrealis, they are a heroic nation. And I am so damned proud the truth is finally outed!

Scott,

Thank you. I'm an Israeli citizen, words of support like yours really mean a lot to us.

To Tatterdemalian:

When I see a German Shepherd that has been taught to fear, hate and bite by his owner until he's turned into a rabid attack dog, I pity that dog and can't help wondering what he would have become if his owner had raised him properly.

The so-called 'Palestinians', the Arabs that were brainwashed into hate by their mullahs, then parked into camps by their Arab 'brothers' to be taught fear and hate, trained by Arab League countries as attack dogs against Israel and against other Arab League countries... I do pity them. But pity will not stop me from shooting whoever is a danger to my family.

It's their 'handlers', the leading thugs in the Arab League and the P.A., the leading thugs in all those Arab 'NGO', the leading thugs in the U.N., that deserve and get my contempt, and my hate. And, of course, the leaders of those countries that chose to sell out Jewish blood to the Arabs because it's convenient.

Hail fellow Infidel. If I knew exactly who you were I would bestow upon you the coveted babbazee oral gratification reward.God Bless America, God Bless Israel, and God Bless Scott.

I should have taken your not-quite-offered advice to stop reading. I would have saved myself the dreadful pain of having to read such dreadful tripe. Great emotional appeal, and as the choir has so enthusiastically stated, well preached. It doesn't mean a damn thing if you don't have a solution.

But a few choice word replacements in your essay and we have a simple solution that directly follows the glorification of a race of people and the demonization of another. Extermination of the evil race of people, in this case, the Arabs.

In the next century we may just indeed have a word for irrational hatred of arabs like we now do for the irrational hatred of jews.

Glad to see you guys are leading the charge.

Actually, we do have a word for that hatred. It seems appropriate to me that it also would be anti-semitism. It's just another aspect of Arab self-loathing that there is so much hatred of the Jews.

I stand with you and Israel. You, Sir, are an amazing person and I am proud to stand with you.

First Scott: That was very eloquent. As a Jew and a Zionist, I wish I could write something so eloquent and heartfelt. Thank you very much.

Second

I too, stand with you and with Israel. I truly wish they would accept a sort of 'Abe Lincoln Brigade' and just turn us loose.
Orion

Orion and all others who want to do something concrete should go this website: Volunteers for Israel They have several programs that will allow people to work for the IDF. Check it out.

WOWOWOWOW!...I'm in full agreement with the TX Vet who said: "I doubt the case can be stated any better."

I give you, Scott, a standing ovation--albeit from in front of my desk in my cluttered little back room in Colorado.

I will link this at another blog I frequent.

God bless you. I believe He agrees!(:~}

I haven't read all the comments so maybe someone else has already said this.

I believe that the Bush administration should stop playing nice with terrorists. Enough "restraint" already. We know the Arab world sees restraint as weakness. I think we should all write letters to our congressmen telling them that the time for restraint was over years ago.

Bruce, it's not hatred, nor is it irrational. When someone says that they want to kill you, believe them. We're not reacting to a forgery like "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Pay a visit to memri.org and see for yourself the incitement & hatred pouring from the pulpits across the Moslem world. They're calling for a war to the knife. And if they're dead unlucky, they'll get it. Get this through your head: The wrath of the Arab Street is a fart in a hurricane compared to than of the American Street. There's nothing more deadly than an engineer intent on protecting their family from rabid fanatics. Last time we faced a fanatical death cult, they came up with Kamikazis and Kaiten manned torpedos. We came up with the B-29 & the Atom Bomb. Preventing another 9/11 is important for our society, but it's a matter of life or death for all Islam. I've no desire to see the Ka'bah turned into a misshappen lump of trinitite, but if that's what it takes to keep my niece from being gassed in a subway or blown up on an airliner, I'll turn one of the launch keys myself.

As we journey further into the thought process where extremists are born we look to our right where we see Lynn S who thinks that its time to just knock off and start killing some people just to show them we can and to our left we see Cybrdludite who has already justified his actions in the name of righteous self defense. Together with a healthy dose of "they hate us so why can't we hate them" and a small sprinkling of God's blessing and we have a ripe recipe for WW3.

Now we only hope that clearer heads prevail and we (including all our kids) don't have to live through the misery you all seem to be praying for.

cheers! I won't be waiting up for the Apocolypse.

First: I would feel honored to stand with you!

Then, for Laura Antoniou:

"...raising their very children to carry guns and bombs and cheering them into death. Who support their leadership, corrupt dictators who hide millions in "aid" while allowing thousands of people to fester in bad housing, with bad schools and bad health care, because they can't be bothered to fix their own society..."

Ma'am, I suggest that their reasoning, such as it is, is NOT that they 'can't be bothered', but that by skimming of millions, and NOT letting their people up, they can purposefully fan the flames of resentment and hatred, precisely in order to support themselves in power, and keep attention directed at others, namely America and Israelis.

Excellent post. Keep up the Eye Openers, Scott!

I stand with you and Israel.

Israel's fight is our fight. Thank you for reminding us so eloquently.

I grew up in Amsterdam, half a street away from where Anne Frank lived before the war. My school was named after her, and when I was 11 we all were given her diary to read. Being a girl of the same age and living in the same neighborhood I identified strongly and was horrified to realize that it could happen just as easily to me. So I wanted to know more about what happened and above all *how* it could have happened.
I read about the war, what had happened to the people, experiments in high schools and with students about power and authority, and learned that it is much easier to make people do monstrous things than I realized. It does not even raise a lot of protest, since most people have great difficulties going against the stream; as Hermann Goering already stated: ?But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
You create a common enemy and ?dehumanize? them; make them a faceless group (individuals might cause empathy) and provide the group with all sorts of negative attributes. Unfortunately examples of how simple this method works and how it gradually turns nastier and nastier are ample; the holocaust just seems to turn out as a major incident in a row of similar occurrences.
While learning and reading I never lost admiration for the Jews and their ability to survive. I was a great admirer of Israel, David against hostile Goliath, and even seriously considered working in a Kibbutz for a year of so after high school. Though I never thought about it, I assumed that when they said ?never again? they meant that the whole principle of discrimination and atrocities the Jews had to face was wrong.
Then, one day on TV, I saw an amateur video in which Israeli soldiers beat up a tied young Palestinian and broke his legs. I couldn?t believe what I saw, and assumed it was an incident. But more stories about wrongful behavior surfaced, and for the first time I decided to dig a bit more into Israeli politics. I read about Jewish terrorists, bombing not only British soldiers but also Arab markets and busses. I read how the Israelis promised that they would create a state with equal rights for non-Jews and with respect for all inhabitants, but followed up with a policy of expelling the Arab population through killing and threats. I read about the occupied territories; how people there live and die in refugee camps for generations, how their roads are being destroyed and their country filled with big motorways that they cannot use because those are for Israelis. I read how people cannot move freely in their own country, kids can?t go to school, curfews are issued at random, people die because they cannot go to the nearest hospital and families with little kids are made homeless with all their properties destroyed.
The country I admired so much has adopted a policy of killing without trials and with no regard for bystanders killed in the process. It adopted a policy of purposely destroying everything the people living in the areas they occupied could use for building up a working society; farmers land, ministerial computers, electricity nets, harbours, telephones, etc. It adopted a policy of punishing the whole family of criminals, including small children. It adopted a policy of humiliation and retaliation, of dehumanizing a whole group of people and assigning all sorts of negative attributes to them.
How can I stand by Israel?? How can I stand by and let it happen? They sow, and I am afraid that the whole world will enjoy the harvest. What can I do? Hang out a Palestinian flag in protest, or paint an Israeli flag black?
Fortunately, during my reading and searching I found a group I *can* stand by. A group that dares to go against the stream, Israeli heroes who fought for their country and who are fighting now to preserve the values and morals that define their society. I stand for the refuseniks (http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp).

scott,
well put! i too stand by israel.

I too stand with you, Scott.

Along with about three other people on mainland Europe, I also stand with Israel.

Better watch out Marj your obviously a jew-hatin anti-semetic nazi if you think Israel has done bad things.

Tim said: "Better watch out Marj your obviously a jew-hatin anti-semetic nazi if you think Israel has done bad things."

But Tim, I understand where Scott comes from. I also thought that Israel was founded by the survivors of the holocaust and had no idea about how, before WWII, the Jews had fought the Brits and the Arabs (and vice versa) because they wanted an Israeli State. It is difficult to see the holocaust and Israel as two seperate things.
I too had (and have) great admiration for how bravely they fought in a hostile environment set out for their destruction.
Israel has many things to be proud of. There are also many Israeli organisations who oppose the current policies in the occupied countries. And how many countries do you know where the first mass peace movement was founded by soldiers (Peace now)?

But there are also things they should be ashamed off. If you read the Human Rights Watch reports (www.hrw.org) you see that they admittedly discriminate the arabic minority in Israel. Read the statements of the refuseniks too, most of whom served in the occupied area's *before* they refusted to serve their again. I never realized that most of the palestinians roads were deliberately destroyed and that they were not allowed to travel the Israeli roads in the occupied areas. How can you go to work if you are lucky to get at work in three or four hours? How can your kids go to school if they cannot travel or if they aren't allowed out due to frequent long curfews? No roads means no transport; to work, to hospital, to school, supplies for stores, etc. etc. An article in the Ha'aretz sums it up quite nicely (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=302161).

As far as the current "roadmap" is concerned; I really do hope the Egyptians and John Wolf's party get somewhere. I do notice that the media give more attention to Hamas not wanting to stop hostilities than to Israel stating that it would refuse a cease fire with Hamas if they offered it. And since Sharon agreed to dismantle settlements 10 uninhibited settlements have been dismantled, 3 inhibited small ones (after the promise that two local Palestinian roads would be blocked) and 5 new settlements were started.

Tim said: "Better watch out Marj your obviously a jew-hatin anti-semetic nazi if you think Israel has done bad things."

But Tim, I understand where Scott comes from. I also thought that Israel was founded by the survivors of the holocaust and had no idea about how, before WWII, the Jews had fought the Brits and the Arabs (and vice versa) because they wanted an Israeli State. It is difficult to see the holocaust and Israel as two seperate things.
I too had (and have) great admiration for how bravely they fought in a hostile environment set out for their destruction.
Israel has many things to be proud of. There are also many Israeli organisations who oppose the current policies in the occupied countries. And how many countries do you know where the first mass peace movement was founded by soldiers (Peace now)?

But there are also things they should be ashamed off. If you read the Human Rights Watch reports (www.hrw.org) you see that they admittedly discriminate the arabic minority in Israel. Read the statements of the refuseniks too, most of whom served in the occupied area's *before* they refusted to serve their again. I never realized that most of the palestinians roads were deliberately destroyed and that they were not allowed to travel the Israeli roads in the occupied areas. How can you go to work if you are lucky to get at work in three or four hours? How can your kids go to school if they cannot travel or if they aren't allowed out due to frequent long curfews? No roads means no transport; to work, to hospital, to school, supplies for stores, etc. etc. An article in the Ha'aretz sums it up quite nicely (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=302161).

As far as the current "roadmap" is concerned; I really do hope the Egyptians and John Wolf's party get somewhere. I do notice that the media give more attention to Hamas not wanting to stop hostilities than to Israel stating that it would refuse a cease fire with Hamas if they offered it. And since Sharon agreed to dismantle settlements 10 uninhibited settlements have been dismantled, 3 inhibited small ones (after the promise that two local Palestinian roads would be blocked) and 5 new settlements were started.

I stand with you!!!

Very moving essay!

We must support Israel in her struggle to avoid a second Holocaust!

I too stand with Israel 1000%!

God bless Israel!
God bless America!

pass the holy hand grenades!

Isn't it outrageous how so many billions of Arabo-Muslim eyes are gleaming at this little speck of land occupied by a tiny prosperous group?
Why are they so jealous of the Israelis? So much hatred and jealousy that they can't welcome their own arab people(so-called Palestinians)into their own arab lands, which are 550 times larger than Israel.

Thanks to all of u!

I was sure that there is no supporters for us left
in this world .
Last month i was back from 25 days army service
(i m a reservist, like most of israelis).
i had bad impression that the world is closing on us. europe, france, belgium - every one come with claims on us, and suddenly i c that...

r u sure? :)

Avi

Nazareth , Israel

The right stuff said: "Isn't it outrageous how so many billions of Arabo-Muslim eyes are gleaming at this little speck of land occupied by a tiny prosperous group?
Why are they so jealous of the Israelis? So much hatred and jealousy that they can't welcome their own arab people(so-called Palestinians)into their own arab lands, which are 550 times larger than Israel."

What does jealousy have to do with it? Israel drove people away from their property and their lands. If you take things by force you have to either give it back or compensate the original owner. The Arab countries host about 3.5 million Palestinians (there are less than 7 million) but those might still want either compensation or their property back. Just as the European countries gradually started to pay compensation to the holocaust victims, for lost property.

Marjolein

marjolein..please consider: if the violence somehow magically ended today, 99.9% of Israelis would be overjoyed and would return to their peacetime pursuits with a great sense of relief. Do you think a majority of Hamas members would forget about violence and become farmers, teachers, or engineers? I don't--I think violence has become core to their identities. Indeed, if Israel ceased to exist, they would merely find some other group of people to attack. Sadly, this seems to be true of large numbers of Palestinians, not because of any defect in the fundamental Palestinian character but because of exceptionally bad leadership and because violence has been romanticized and rewarded by many in the West.

To ignore this fundamental difference between the sides seems to me to be ignoring the reality. Remember the words of Leonard Cohen:

Whatever makes a soldier sad
Will make a killer smile

(from his poem, "The Captain.")

I am proud to stand with you all in this.

Beca

oh, and Bruce? I am *fascinated* that apparently saying that babies shouldn't be murdered in their mothers arms is somehow inciting WWIII. that saying that the people that danced while my city burned are animals is somehow a lie. that if we all just snuggle up in a muddy field and sing Kumbaya the magical fairies of peace will come and sneeze goodness and light on us.
let me guess....you're wearing a tin foil hat.

Scott, your summation of the "modern history of Israel vs what the Arabs would like us to believe" is excellent. I only wish this could be run on the front page of every newspaper. I proudly stand with you.

Phx, Az
USA

dear Marjolein

year before 1948 war 12 milion germans were expelled from their land and went by force
toward the west.
i do not remember that went on killing polish and russian children on that.

palestinians lost the war and went(by force) to exile. so they lost!!! you what would happen to us i we had lose this war back in 1948.

u do not understand that everything is excuse for the to kill us.

u will learn than one day. islam is reason.

u wrote that we discriminate arab citezens.
where from did you got it?
do you know that only in jewish state arab can be candidate for prime minister!!!!
in 1996 azmi bashara was candidate.
i remember him tell in TV "i m putting on test israel democracy and i will prove it that they wont let me continue with that"

but he was wrong!!! we let him, inspite his travel to lebanon where he openly supported the arm strugle against israel. u c what you should be proud off!!! our democracy like in your country.

u wrote also that we doing THAT AND THAT to palestinians... may be we should learn from how u treated the natives of indonezia! i asure u that in this case we would finish our problems wright away :)

or maybe we should learn from belgia in congo
or maybe france in algier

but we have problem, if we do that, the glue that keeps us (israelis) together (our believe that we more then just another people) will disapear.

u wrote about the soldiers that u saw on tv beating arabs and u then stop admir us!

u forgot to wrote that those soldiers were judged, expeled from the army with disgrace, and all they rank were taken from there. we cannot prevent some soldiers to act in bad ways but we can act as country of law in this part of world where blackness off islam rules. that should be proud off!

i m caucasian (not in race term) born in caucasian mountains between black sea and caspian.
since childhood my mother told me tales about abraham and josef, pharaons... i told those stories to my friends and i thought that they too knew about this stories, but i revealed that i m unique (some how).
i did know if this was i good sense or bad.

after being expeled from soccer game because of being jewish i understood the... sense...

why i m telling u that:
when i came to israel i met arabs and i knew that they r minority and i told to myself to remember the hardness of being minority, so i was left from political point of view.
after 15 year i telling u, that arabs are not regular minority not like katalunians in spain, not like ukrainians in russia, not like flems in belgia... the difference is ISLAM.
U DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT BUT ONE U WILL.
THE WANT US DEAD.
every arab that will embrace western way of life is like brother to me, but there is little of them. you have minority in holland of muslims, u will what i mean. u will use our methods in the future. remember that!

when i m lying in ambushes in West Bank, together with my brother in arm (black jews from ethipfia, russian jews, canadian, marokan... even french...
i know that we will overcome our enemy and our cause is wright, it is harder because of people like u that do not understan us.
u wrote "then, one day i understand that...israelis are "bad" in this story" ... it took to me 15 years to understand who is who when i m here and u took it in one day from 1000 of kilometers. be serious!

about the seruvnikim, they like leaves that felt from the tree. the are temporarily event...

be happy and dont judge us before understanding...

bye

dear Marjolein

year before 1948 war 12 milion germans were expelled from their land and went by force
toward the west.
i do not remember that went on killing polish and russian children on that.

palestinians lost the war and went(by force) to exile. so they lost!!! you what would happen to us i we had lose this war back in 1948.

u do not understand that everything is excuse for the to kill us.

u will learn than one day. islam is reason.

u wrote that we discriminate arab citezens.
where from did you got it?
do you know that only in jewish state arab can be candidate for prime minister!!!!
in 1996 azmi bashara was candidate.
i remember him tell in TV "i m putting on test israel democracy and i will prove it that they wont let me continue with that"

but he was wrong!!! we let him, inspite his travel to lebanon where he openly supported the arm strugle against israel. u c what you should be proud off!!! our democracy like in your country.

u wrote also that we doing THAT AND THAT to palestinians... may be we should learn from how u treated the natives of indonezia! i asure u that in this case we would finish our problems wright away :)

or maybe we should learn from belgia in congo
or maybe france in algier

but we have problem, if we do that, the glue that keeps us (israelis) together (our believe that we more then just another people) will disapear.

u wrote about the soldiers that u saw on tv beating arabs and u then stop admir us!

u forgot to wrote that those soldiers were judged, expeled from the army with disgrace, and all they rank were taken from there. we cannot prevent some soldiers to act in bad ways but we can act as country of law in this part of world where blackness off islam rules. that should be proud off!

i m caucasian (not in race term) born in caucasian mountains between black sea and caspian.
since childhood my mother told me tales about abraham and josef, pharaons... i told those stories to my friends and i thought that they too knew about this stories, but i revealed that i m unique (some how).
i did know if this was i good sense or bad.

after being expeled from soccer game because of being jewish i understood the... sense...

why i m telling u that:
when i came to israel i met arabs and i knew that they r minority and i told to myself to remember the hardness of being minority, so i was left from political point of view.
after 15 year i telling u, that arabs are not regular minority not like katalunians in spain, not like ukrainians in russia, not like flems in belgia... the difference is ISLAM.
U DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT BUT ONE U WILL.
THE WANT US DEAD.
every arab that will embrace western way of life is like brother to me, but there is little of them. you have minority in holland of muslims, u will what i mean. u will use our methods in the future. remember that!

when i m lying in ambushes in West Bank, together with my brother in arm (black jews from ethipfia, russian jews, canadian, marokan... even french...
i know that we will overcome our enemy and our cause is wright, it is harder because of people like u that do not understan us.
u wrote "then, one day i understand that...israelis are "bad" in this story" ... it took to me 15 years to understand who is who when i m here and u took it in one day from 1000 of kilometers. be serious!

about the seruvnikim, they like leaves that felt from the tree. the are temporarily event...

be happy and dont judge us before understanding...
avi nazareth israel
bye

dear marjolein

as i finished to wrote, i got for u (fresh news, 2 minutes ago):

"One two-year old toddler killed, five-year old sister badly hurt in Palestinian shooting attack on Israeli car on new Trans-Israeli highway near Kibbutz Eyal Tuesday night. Fire came from West Bank Qalqilya region. Their grandfather who was driving was also injured"

i was driving 2 days ago in this same road.

be happy

avi
nazareth israel

Marjolein, I find your postion to be completely unbalanced.

You conveniently left out any hint of the reason why Israel has had to adopt tough policies such as curfews, road closures, etc.

It is all in response to the campaign of irrational violence by the "Palestinian" arabs.

The Israelis may have adopted a policy of "killing without trials", but the arabs are killing Israelis *at random*! Which behavior is closer to the definition of genocide?

Israel only targets known murder-masterminds, whom the PA will not arrest. And they only do it out of desperation, to prevent future attacks. They are not killing without good reason. Whereas the arabs are killing without reason.

It is a tragedy when arab children are hurt or killed when Israel attacks a terrorist leader. And Israel does not celebrate when it happens. But the arabs are killing children *deliberately*. The difference on the moral scale is enourmous.

There is no moral equivalence between the two sides.

What kind of person can point a rifle at the head of a 5-year-old child such as Avishai Shabo (http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0lva0) and pull the trigger. Or stand next to babies such as Gal Aizenman (http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=3328) and then self-detonate.

You accuse Israel of "adopting a policy of ... dehumanizing" the arabs. But no one has to "dehumanize" them. They are dehumanizing themselves.

I too stand with Israel.

Avi, we are with you.

Good work, Scott.

Dear Scott,

I was so hurt by Marjolein and i was bussy to replay, so i forgot to thank u for your paper (my initial reason for writing).

You made my day... even though i believe in our just cause it is some times hard to go on.

i have 2 children (2 boys) 5 and 3, and they do not know yet what the meaning of being "jews" (specialy jews in Israel) and the dangers that wait for them.

There is unwritten contract between jews in israel. it says:

"we are comming to our historical father/mother land to build a home for jews people so if something like hollcaust will happen there will be place for them, but there is danger in doing this to us and to our children, and some of us will be murdered. and we do not know even when will be end to that"

and after the killing the families that suffered the casulties are becoming morally depend on families that did not (yet) , because the families want to feel that their lose was not for nothing and they want to c that the "unsuffered" families stays and continues
the dream. but like in most societies there is families who wont pay the price and wont go on.
we do not judge them and they leave us, u can c then in us, canada, holland, what ever ... even germany! the other unsuffered families that understand the just cause that was behind and of course embrace the famillies who paid allready the price and inspite of hostile world in the first ring (arab countries), and the second (muslim non arab countries) and the third (non arab non muslim but depend on them like south africa etc) , and fourth ring (europe) and only US is still with us - we continue because we must.

this story is microcosmus to big story:
we are jews, but we believe that judaism can and must go with western way of live (christianity gave birth to to "western" civilization as judaism
gave birth to christianity.
so in this sense israel and other western countries are like families in israel.

but we feel that a lot of countries do not understand that!

Marjolein is one of them like many ex-israelis that left us breaking the contract.

She is like someone who looks at Mona Lisa picture
and says "it is not good, you can see that there not enough white paint in here eye ball..."

but she will understand one day...
there is a lot of thing that she wrote is true but
she must c the reasons...

occupation is excuse... because if we will get out
the terror will come back...
until she wont understand that 911 events was made
by the same heritage that quides those who kill ou children in israeli buses..
we understand that there is a muslim minority but there is also DRUZE minority, Cherkass-muslim minority, Cristian-arab(!) minority and they all embrace western way of life and they prospare here with us. druzes and cherkass are even going (they asked) for 3 years to the IDF (ARMY) ... BUT MUSLIMS-arabs want it all!

our existence it is their humiliation:

1) u cannot be great monotheistic religion if
2000 years before jews proclaimed the monotheism

2) it a shame for them that arab-israeli (despite so cald discrimination) their average income is large then those of lebanon arab, syrian, jordanian and egiptian alltogether!!!

3)the insulted from their their war history with us

4) they ashamed to addmit that they left land because of 3-4 terror atacks in 48 when we suffered 300 suicide and thousand more others
in 50 years of our existens

5)the ashame that our country send satelite to space and they you choose it...

6) the dod not understan how can take 1000000 jews from russia to our country and give them high standart of living

7) the ashame to admit that they claims that jerualsem is holly for them because muhamad had only a dream that he went to "far mosque in far city" even do not mentioning once "jerusalem":
-as u know dreams cannot leave archioligacal findings
-jerusalem no even once mentioned in kuran
-the year he had dream there where no mosque in jerusalem - it was under bizantine rull and was conquered first by muslims years after

8) they ashame to admit that their religion is based on judaism too - u can c similarities in almost each their commandments
- how come their mosque is in jerusalem
- how come they do not eat porke
- how come they have seven days in week
- etc...

9) they understand that the base of islam is believing in reviliation of God to unly one man - it is not some good , today such base in court will bring pshiciatric evaluation, while the jews claim that in mount sinai the god revealed to all of the jewish people.
may be it is also not true but if muslims admits on they own that believe on one man testemony - well ...

10) arab israeli forget that we offered to some arab city to pass to palestine state (with the land! )but they wont
agree

11)they ashame to admit that only in jewish state
arab can be candidate to prime minister post
not in maroko,tinus, mauritania,lebanon, libya, egipt,saudia, sudan,abu dhabu, oman, katar, bahcreiin, kuveit, iraq, iran , pakistan

*** i think that deep inside they are admire us more the Marjolein ***
but they cannot admit ...

there other arabs
there muslim-arab family in nazareth that sent their son to military service (voluntarily)
and was shot in ambush in west bank, i even remember that day.

muslim cleric refussed to burry him even though this cleric was getting salary from the state.
there is site for all fallen soldiers of israel
and each family can something for memomry of their beloved but his family wont write nothing because of the neibours pressure. and even after
teh state wanted to do that te asked not too.
when my sons will grow they will heard of him and the others anbd i will teach them that race is no matter, matter is the way of life that believe in.

i believe that in in some 300 years there will be one people and one world (may be 2 together with mars :)) living by western way of life that is based on Moses-Jesus heritage, but for this to happen europe and others must Understand Us.

Scott, thank u very much again for the paper

*******one image worth thousand words.******

2000 years ago holy land was waste land and like desert.

at the picture below (at his buttom u can c the borderline between egypt and israel)

u c the line very good.
from left side it is yellow and right side it is much darker - it is the same desert but on israeli side the "green" is florishing not because suddenly it started to grow. people done with very hard work and sucrifies

- only people who really deserve this land can do that!

http://luna.tau.ac.il/~peter/MEIDEX/Gallery/Pictures/Israel/isr7.htm

I have been working in Israel. I have been working in Palestine. I am Jewish. I hold an Israeli passport. I, like hundreds of thousands who march in the streets to stop the senseless slaughter of the Palestinians, thank you for setting us straight. Those of us who live the situation must be anti-semites because self-righteous americans believe only what they read in their Rightest media. Hooray for you. We Israeli's are not proud to have been the 1st to use suicide bombs in the region (look it up). We Israeli's are not proud we violate the Geneva convention by using our tax money and our compulsary military service to blow up hospitals and schools. We Israelis who are outside the rich and sheltered minority of our country are ashamed at the way american Jews make us look with their bigotry and hate. We wish to live in peace with our brethren, arab, christian, whomever. It is essays like this that make us weep. It is THIS KIND of hatred that fuels Hamas. THIS KIND of bigotry.

Someday I hope your black heart finds peace. I will pray for you when I return to my country.

If you are NOT proud of what you do, then WHY do you do it?

rebecca...

israelis live in israel - stay where u r.
dont come back.

we need u as a dog needs fifth leg

avi
nazareth , israel

Avi, if I quote from your posts this will become even longer than it allready will, so I shall just address the points you raise.

Yes, what the Dutch did in Indonesia in the sixties was very wrong. You may have noticed however that we solved it by allowing them their own state - and that we accepted refugees in our own crowded country. I can assure you that I have a long list of more current things that we are doing wrong IMHO, but that debate is rather of topic here.

Children under 13 killed by the various parties dec 1987 till december 2002: 163 Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces in the Occupied Territories, 13 Palestinian minors killed by Israeli civilians in the Occupied Territories, 14 Israeli minors killed by Palestinian civilians in the Occupied Territories and 17 Israeli minors killed by Palestinian civilians in Israel.

About the state of your democracy; on the site of the Israel Democracy Institute (www.idi.org.il) you will find the results of the 2003 report, comparing Israel with 31 other democracies. "The picture emerging from the various indicators shows that Israel is mainly a formal democracy that has not yet acquired the characteristics of a substantive democracy. It also suffers from great instability in comparison with other democratic countries."
"The Rights Aspect: Israel's ranking in this aspect is worrisome. For nearly every indicator, Israel places in the lower half of the list. Protection of human rights in Israel is poor; there is serious political and economic discrimination against the Arab minority; there is much less freedom of religion than in other democracies; and the socioeconomic inequality indicator is among the highest in the sample."

You remark about their jealousy of your economy. The latest UN report on the impact of the conflict on the Palestinian economy notes that one telling statistic captured the overall picture of the Palestinian economy: in just 27 months since the outbreak of violence, Israeli restrictions on movement in the West Bank and Gaza reduced gross national income by approximately $5.4 billion - one year's worth of income. The World Bank reports that 60 per cent of Palestinians now live under the poverty line of $2 a day and the number of poor has tripled from 637,000 in September 200 to nearly 2 million today.

At the same time is Israel the largest recipient of US financial aid in the world, receiving over one-third of total US aid to foreign countries. In 1997 (the year I could find figures from) the total of US grants and loan guarantees to Israel was $5.5 billion, i.e., $15,068,493 per day.

You posted a photo to show how on israeli side of the border the "green" is florishing due to the hard work and sacrifices of the people, and feel that that only people who do that deserve the land. If you cherish it so much, how can you condone the deliberate and widespread destruction of palestinian grounds by IDF and settlers? And do you realize where the water comes from that makes the green so florishing? 75% of the Occupied West Bank & Gaza Strip renewable water resources are used by Israel.
Three million Palestinians are allowed to use 250 million cubic meters per annum (83 cubic meters for each Palestinian per year) while six million Israelis enjoy the use of 2.0 billion cubic meters (333 cubic meter for each Israeli per year), which means that one Israeli consumes as much water as do four Palestinians. Each Israeli settler is allocated 1,450 cubic meters of water per year.
The World Health Organization's recognized minimum of domestic water consumption is 100 liters per capita per day. The current domestic water supply for Palestinians is only 57-76 liters per capita per day.

Suicide bombing is a reprehensible and unacceptable tactic. These attacks should stop immediately. But Israel's targeting of Palestinian civilians should stop too.

Since the Palestinian uprising started in late September 2000, more than 1,500 Palestinians, and 400 Israelis have been killed. If Israel tries really hard to avoid harming Palestinian civilians how come three times more palestinians have died?
Every human rights group that has examined Israel's practices has documented systematic and deliberate use of violence targeted at unarmed Palestinian civilians by Israeli forces. You can read UN reports, the sites of Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, etc. If you rather read in Hebrew you can read http://www.btselem.org/.

Israel is responsible for the occupied territories. If you give the population no state, no economy, no food, no water, no houses, no education, no future..... if you create a system of apartheid with resources freely available for Israeli's who create settlements in occupied Palestinian territory but less and less for the Palestinian population, do you really think you can ever stop the violence?

After your posts I do wonder about two things. Why are you lying in ambushes on the Westbank? And what is in YOUR opinion the solution for the occupied territories?

Marjolein
ps; I forgot to address your remarks about the islam. I am a secular humanist myself, so I have no great preference for one religion above the other. But maybe you should read up on islam a bit. AFAIK they believe that god prepared humanity for the proper religion in three stages. First he gave them Judaism (Old Testament based). Than he gave them the slightly improved version, Christianity, via the prophet jezus. And than he sent his most important prophet, Mohammed, to update it to the best form; the Islam. Christians and Jews are "people of the book" since they share the same fundaments (biblical ancestors and such), and hold a special place because they also share the believe in the one and only god. They don't even blame the Jews for the killing of Christ, since they believe he was alive when he ascended to heaven.

You can find a lot of very usefull information about the various religions on http://www.religioustolerance.org/

dear marjolein

islam believes that the god is perfect and every thing that he dose is perfect, so how come he did not do something perfect at the first time (like bible), why he needed to do kuran?

oh, i forgot... muslims say (among those that we are children of pigs ets) that we changed the god law that why he gave kuran.
how convinient...

did you read kuran? i rode it in english and russian and hebrew:

Sura 17:104 says that :
'And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, "Go live into this land. When the final prophecy comes to pass, we will summon you all in one group."'

so, what muslims say about:
that we r not the real jew!
how convinent... so why germans kill us?

i invite to chat with me (mails ...what ever)
u will c that what we r doing, u your self if you was born jewish, would have done...

you always mention facts, what about motive?
i as i jew will not able to look at myself if knew
that arab want peace with and wont agree.
no such thing...
u do not know nothing about kuran...

by islam the world is devided by 2:
zone of islam
zone of war

zone of islam devided by 2:
1)zone of islam that islam reigns now
2)zone of islam where something took the power from them

zone of war devided by 2:
3)zone where islam has freedom to grow
4)zone where islam has not freedom to grow

islam must take power when it grows anough (jihad)
each country in the world is in one of those 4 cotegories

israel is 2
us 3
syria 2 (asad hunts them)
egypt 2 (mubarak hunts them)
france 2
europe 2
iran 1
lebanon was 3 and now 1 (christin country became muslim)

afganistan went from 1 to 2

in 2 type countries must be jihad brutaly
in 3 type countries islam must be quite to aquire power by demografics and econim prosperity
and then use their power (democraticly) to conquer
if (like in algier the state wont give them power
the status will become 2) and "yallaa jihad"

there is no 4 because of freedom world

open your eyes

before they will close thet with higab...
or maybe you allready there...

be happy
avi

ps next mounth i have 28 days in the army
3 days more because of your friends (seruvnikim)

correction:
france and europe are 3

dear marjolein

u asked me about solution for the teretories:

when they become secular humanists
embrace western way of life
accept us here

i ready to give the all of terretories with little exchanges with proportion of 1:1 (fair)

when do think they will become secular humanists?
never!

so i will hunt them down
because it is them or us
their children or mine
their satan or my god
their education or mine
they way of life or mine

avi
nazareth, israel

BTW
r u live in holland?
i need your help...
i need to find parents address of soldier that died in december 2000:

his name was Jonathan Vermeulen

i tried but no succes , there is a lot of vermeulen in holland

he is christian soldier from holland that asked from queen of holland to serve in israeli military instead of hollandish, she allowed it to him...

was killed in the gaza strip in december 2000

please... important to me

ditails
http://masada2000.org/jnf.html

thank u
avi
nazareth
israel

**** marjolein !!! ****
hi, again
i dont think there will be results in our arguing
but in thing u can help:

r u live in holland, now?

if so, i need your help

i m looking for parent of jonatan vermeulen
(ditails at: http://masada2000.org/jnf.html)
is was soldier in gaza strip, christian from holland that asked hollandish queen to allow him
to serve in israely army instead of dutch.

she agreed... 7 years after he was killed at 28-12-2000

at least tell me how u write in hollandish his parents names :
in hebrew they sound like
hiltia (mother) mahil (father)

please...
thank u
avi
nazareth
israel

I am standing with you and have been for many years.

Hi Avi,

First I tried to find more info for you about Jonathan Vermeulen. I only discovered that he originally came from Etten-Leur, a village in the southwest of the Netherlands. But I do not know wether his parents returned to the same village, and in the phonebook there are allready 53 Vermeulens for Etten-Leur.
His death was mentioned in the archives of the Center for Information and Documentation about Israel (CIDI) in the Netherlands. Maybe they can help you ? http://www.cidi.nl/ of cidi@cidi.nl

About our discussion; interesting as a discussion about comparative religions is, this seems not the proper place for it. The discussion here is about Israel versus the Palestines and you do not reply to the points I make or the facts I give. You say that you would rather talk about motive and give your perception of Islam. But we can only give our own interpretation of motives, whilst facts provide valuable fuel for an honest debate.

The only question you answered is the one about your solution for the Palestinians. You say that unless they all become secular humanists you will hunt them down. I am greatly in favor for secular;most Western Countries are. Are you also in favor of Israel becoming secular?
Since the whole population converting to humanism is not really an option I take it that your proposed solution is to hunt them down. With a strong statement like that I think it is very important that I have a very clear picture of what you mean by that, so would you care to elaborate? Which groups would you want to hunt down? All Palestines? Just the Palestines in the occupied area's? Just the Palestines in the Occupied Area's and the Palestines in Israel? Only the muslim part of either of those groups or the Christian, Druze and Bedouin Palestines too? Yesterday the Knesset approved the first reading of a bill submitted by the government that rescinds the right of Israeli residents and citizens who have married residents of the Occupied Territories to establish their home in Israel (shocking... what is next? forbidding those marriages??) so you even might end up with Jewish Palestinians.

And when you say hunt down, what exactly do you mean by that? My first idea when you say that is that you want to kill them all, but I assume that is not what you mean. But I fail to come up with a proper image of what you *do* mean.

Marjolein

Marjolein...one other comment. You say: "If you give the population no state, no economy, no food, no water, no houses, no education, no future....."

You don't *give* people an economy. They create one. Those who don't understand this fact will never be economically successful, as individuals or as groups.

Similarly, what is preventing the many educated Palestinians from providing education to others?

Finally, there are many ethnic groups in the world that don't have "a state," but still manage to be economically successful. They are those who focus on creating value, rather than on their ethnicity, grievance, and sense of entitlement.

David, you cannot "give" an economy, but you *can* destroy one. from the CIA factbook (In addition to the links I gave before, those are more current):
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html#People

Economic output in the West Bank is governed by the Paris Economic Protocol of April 1994 between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Real per capita GDP for the West Bank and Gaza Strip (WBGS) declined by about one-third between 1992 and 1996 due to the combined effect of falling aggregate incomes and rapid population growth. The downturn in economic activity was largely the result of Israeli closure policies - the imposition of border closures in response to security incidents in Israel - which disrupted labor and commodity market relationships between Israel and the WBGS. The most serious social effect of this downturn was rising unemployment; unemployment in the WBGS during the 1980s was generally under 5%; by 1995 it had risen to over 20%. Israel's use of comprehensive closures during the next five years decreased and, in 1998, Israel implemented new policies to reduce the impact of closures and other security procedures on the movement of Palestinian goods and labor. These changes fueled an almost three-year-long economic recovery in the West Bank and Gaza Strip; real GDP grew by 5% in 1998 and 6% in 1999. Recovery was upended in the last quarter of 2000 with the outbreak of Palestinian violence, which triggered tight Israeli closures of Palestinian self-rule areas and severely disrupted trade and labor movements. In 2001, and even more severely in 2002, internal turmoil and Israeli military measures in Palestinian Authority areas have resulted in the destruction of much capital plant and administrative structure, widespread business closures, and a sharp drop in GDP. Another major loss has been the decline in earnings of Palestinian workers in Israel.

As far as the education is concerned - kids do have to go to school, and schools and universities have to be paid. UNWRA does a lot of good work there, though there are still many schools on double shift (used by one school in the morning and another in the afernoon).
But the kids have to visit the school. If you are under a curfew or if your road is blocked, you can't go. Take a look at the curfew statistics at http://www.palestinercs.org/Presentation%20PowerPoint%20Curfew%20Tracking%20July%202002_files/frame.htm

Marjolein

Agree 100%. Excelent. All the best.

Marjolein

You just made some points for the Israel side:

Quote:Israel implemented new policies to reduce the impact of closures and other security procedures on the movement of Palestinian goods and labor. These changes fueled an almost three-year-long economic recovery in the West Bank and Gaza Strip; real GDP grew by 5% in 1998 and 6% in 1999. Recovery was upended in the last quarter of 2000 with the outbreak of Palestinian violence, which triggered tight Israeli closures of Palestinian self-rule areas and severely disrupted trade and labor movements.

The cause of the closures etc, etc was the outbreak of PALESTINIAN violence. If I recall corectly this was during the time when Clinton was trying very hard for Mid-East peace. When the Israel's had a more moderate leadership and were truly working at diplomacy to settle the issue.

Then Arrafat decided that what was being offered was not good enough (Even though the offer contained many of the things the Palestinian's wanted.) And instead of accepting the offer and then working for more concessions thru diplomacy he rejected the offer. This led to the downfall of the moderate Israel gov. and a more hard line gov took it's place.

Where would we be if Arrafat and the Palestinian's had accepted the various treaty's and proposals in the late 90's??

What was offered in 2000

At Camp David in July, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offers Arafat 92 percent of the West Bank, all of Gaza, Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem, Palestinian statehood and the dismantling of most settlements, but he rejects this and the Palestinians launch violence. In December, Barak agrees to negotiate a Clinton proposal for an Israeli withdrawal from 95 per-cent of the West Bank. Again, Arafat rejects the proposal.

Arafat played High stakes poker with the Palastinian people's lives and lost. (I've done this myself a time or two though with Money not lives. I had some stocks that I payed $5000 for. I had a chance to sell them for $17,000 but just had to stretch it just a little bit further. Now they are worth $500) Instead of having peace now with 90% of what they wanted and no more killing then continue to negotiate but they chose not to.

If you stand with Israel, why don't you move there? It's one thing to write some words on a blog in America, it's quite another to gain Israeli citizenship, rear children in that country, and watch as little Yakov joins the IDF and comes back either in pieces or as a very angry or disillusioned young man. No American Zionist I know of actually wants to move there. But many Israelis want to leave.

Jeff, my quote was intended to show how the actions of Israel had a strong negative impact on the Palestinian economy.
You say that it is in fact a point in Israels favor that the quote shows that the Israeli's tightened the closure rules again as a reaction to an eruption of Palestinian violence.
If you look at the site of the israeli organisation b'tselem (http://www.btselem.org/) you can find under statistics a list with casualities per month, both in the Occupied Territories and in Israel (within the green line). I count in the last quarter of 2000 (the period mentioned in the quote) as from september 29th; 272 Palestinians killed by the IDF in the occupied territories and 6 palestinians killed by Israeli civilians. 18 Israeli civilians were killed by palestinians, and 19 soldiers. Within Israel in that timeframe 1 palestinian was killed by security forces and 4 Israeli civilians were killed by palestinians. That makes 279 dead palestinians and 41 dead israeli's, of whom 37 were killed in the Occupied Territories. From "an eruption of Palestinian violence" I expected slightly different figures - didn't you?
It all started with the visit of Sharon to the Temple Mount on september 28th 2000. He knew perfectly well that that would provoce strong violent reactions. Now, you can have a long debate about his right to be there or not to be there (my personal believe is that everybody should be free to visit every place important to him of her, but I am not religious). Point is however, that Sharon was fully aware of the provocative nature of the visit. If you go to the previously mentioned site, you can find a detailed description of the events on day later on the temple mount, under "publications, 2000".

As far as the camp David accords are concerned: If I may quote from the economist (with your speculations you might find that an attractive source of information, and it can definately not be regardes as a "leftish" one ;-)): "Even at Camp David, though a deal was never as close as asserted at the time, one might have been reached with more time. Ehud Barak, Israel's Labour prime minister, courageously broke the Israeli ban on even talking about a shared Jerusalem. But his proposals were imprecise and less generous than he claimed. The Palestinians were half-offered a state that would include a few scattered districts in East Jerusalem, and three separate chunks of land in 91% of the West Bank." (http://economist.com/background/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=1077422). Another informative article by someone present at camp David can be found at http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/08/opinion/08MALL.html?ex=1056254400&en=f3ce82ed944ee307&ei=5070. A quote:"If peace is to be achieved, the parties cannot afford to tolerate the growing acceptance of these myths as reality.
The facts do not indicate, however, any lack of foresight or vision on the part of Ehud Barak. He had uncommon political courage as well. But the measure of Israel's concessions ought not be how far it has moved from its own starting point; it must be how far it has moved toward a fair solution."
Sometimes a picture can say more than a thousands words. I found the flash animated map on the site of the Israeli Peace organisation Gush Shalom very enlightning. http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf

Good luck with your investments, and remember the major rule; only gamble with what you can afford to lose!

Marjolein

hi, Marjolein

thank u about Jonatan.

palestinians as whole (one group) do not want piece with us.

u can argue with till the end of times!
BUT, the difference between me and u, is i live in nazareth between arabs... even israeli arabs dream to kill us one day (as a whole)...

you r comming with your "anna frank" guilt and want to clean yourself from it by showing that we also like nazis.
your hitting your head against the wall, because we , israelis, know the truth:
the will never agree to live with us(not because we r bad but because they r muslims). and even after piece agreement they will go to next phase
to ruin our country by accusation like in Durban (Osama ruined it for them).
i voted once SIMON PERES, THEN RABIN, THEN BARAK , THEN NATANYAHOO AND NOW SHARON - not because i do not know what to vote but because i know now what did no knew then. they want to kill us. period. and r helping then by not understanding!
come to live in israel and then help them.
i want to see you then... i was once in comminist youth , i was humanist more then can dream!

hummanis it luxury in holland for the next 20 years (i believe that after that the muslim minority will show you their true face and u will throw hummansm and treat them with out jewish mercy ...
hummanism worth nothing in JUNGLE.

byu "hunting" i ment to run after them when they trying to kill them, not to murder them like nazis (dont go such low)

do you heard that we in negotions now:
so how many palestins has died since start the tals?
none

yester day news:

"Friday night, Palestinian gunmen shot dead Zvi Goldstein, 47, from Eli, father of groom, seriously injured his wife Michal and parents Eugene and Naomi Goldstein on visit from America for grandson's wedding."

day before that suicide bomber blow himself in store.

only time will show you that i m right!
as it showed to me when i was in your position against my right wing friends

they even do not understand force, nor arabic...
bye and thank u for jonatan information i will continue...

Kick ass, man. You'll not be alone while I live.

Hi marjolein,

There cannot be peace because the Arabs especially Muslims collectively, will NEVER be HAPPY until Israel is COMPLETELY DESTROYED - it is their prime directive, so PEACE is out of the QUESTION for them! Even if some Arabs don't
support this directive (like some Arab Christians), they will still sympathize with terrorist groups. You can see they SYMPATHIZE with the actions of terrorist groups because we see them celebrating when Israelis or Westerners die from holy Islamic suicide attacks - the Imams(who get orders from Allah) call them martyrs and they are told: they get so many "bonuses" in Heaven, like virgins and young boys for killing non-Muslims.
You say the IDF is deliberately targeting Palestinian civilians. That's NOT TRUE at ALL and it MAKES NO SENSE. Why would they directly target civilians? If this was true, MILLIONS of ARABS would have been killed by now in such a dense area not such a relatively FEW.

I agree that your motives are guilt driven "a la Anne Frank", but it doesn't matter how good the theory of humanism is(I LIKE HUMANISM TOO), in REALITY it DOES NOT WORK if people like Muslim do NOT want peace - YOU are forced to do something if it's either YOU OR THEM.
Holland will be in Muslim majority(>50%) in under 40 years based on current birth rates and immigration. Maybe then you will see what it is to lose all your FREEDOM and HUMANISM IDEALS that you enjoy from afar in a western country, because SHARIA ISLAMIC LAW will be required to cater for the religious rights of the muslims in Holland - maybe you won't be able to drink alcohol or wear a bikini, or allow gays and lesbians to live freely?

The majority of Arabs are Muslims and their God "Allah" tells them that, we Christians, and the Jews are pigs and must be killed or converted to Islam. So how can we force (by such Western Freedoms) the Muslims to be peaceful if their ALLAH orders martyrdom?

You blame Israel for the economic situation of the Palestinian Arabs, but why JUST Israel to such an extent? The Palestinian terrorist groups get so much money from the other Arabo-Muslim countries and organisations around the Western world, that could be spent on their own people. Yasser Arafat and his colleagues too, have a small fortune that they keep from their people.
Most of the Arabo-Muslim world has despotic leaders rich from oil, that keep all the wealth from their people who live in such poverty.

Don't forget a Palestinian family will get $30,000 for any member of the family performing a suicide attack killing Israelis.

How about sharing some of the blame on other Arab/Muslim countries with all of their GIGANTIC lands instead of just blaming Israel for just about everything?
These Arabs are the same Arabs after all, just as all Jews consider other Jews as Jews. AraboMuslims have to stop blaming others for their own misfortune and take responsibility of their own people.
And don't forget Muslims are allowed to freely attempt to emigrate to Western countries and if they make it, they just stick their hands out and get aid while they settle. As a westerner, you cannot do the same going to an Islamic country - you would probably be persecuted and eventually murdered.

Marjolein

*Sigh* Quote: "I count in the last quarter of 2000 (the period mentioned in the quote) as from september 29th; 272 Palestinians killed by the IDF in the occupied territories and 6 palestinians killed by Israeli civilians. 18 Israeli civilians were killed by palestinians, and 19 soldiers. Within Israel in that timeframe 1 palestinian was killed by security forces and 4 Israeli civilians were killed by palestinians." Read what I posted. The Palenstinians rejected the offer in July with an outbreak of violence. Then they had one more chance (With a better offer no less) after the violence had started. No it wasn't everything that they wanted but you can't have a diplomatic solution until both sides are willing to compromise and make sacrafices. To date the only side that has been willing is Israel (Though with the hardliners in place AS A RESULT of the continuing attacks by the Palastinians they aren't as willing)

Yes I realize that more Palastinians are getting killed than Israels (That's what happens when you kick off a war that you can not hope to win when you are surrounded by your own civilians.)

The really sad part of your argument (And one that I don't know if you are aware of or not) is this: The Israels have overwhelming mililitary forces that have the capability to easily wipe out the Palestinians AT ANY TIME but they don't. Were the situation reversed how many Israels do you think would be alive??

Scott, I am honoured to stand with you and Israel. The people of India stand with the people of Israel!

Writing replies takes up more time than I have available unfortunately, since I like to find the proper resources for the facts I mention so that they can be checked, and since English is not my mothertongue which makes writing and arguing harder.

Unfortunately I seem to do a lot of work for nothing, since facts are not what people are arguing about.

Avi; I have no Anne Frank quilt I want to get rid of. I was trying to explain that her history made me very aware of what can happen in modern society, how easy such a horrible thing could happen and could be condoned, in a community steered by propaganda and indifference. And I was trying to convey that I used to be very pro-Israel, had great admiration for the country. Rescuing the Ethiopians made a big impression, as did the extend of the Israeli efforts to liberate as many USSR subject as possible. Building a literally blooming country in the dessert is something to be proud of, and surviving in such a hostile environment is too.

However; what the Israeli's do to the Palestinians is wrong, and what the Israeli's do to the Israeli Arabs is wrong too. I posted many URL's with stats and facts (hard enough as it is since Israel fends of Journalists and International Monitors, human rights organisations, humanitary aid organisations, etc. Yesterday they refused a party of Dutch and Belgian doctors entrence because their mission to estimate the health condition of the Palestines was politicised) but nobody really addresses them. You blame everything on the muslims and tell me that I will talk differently when the muslims will have taken over in 50 years or so. It is nice to create a common enemy and create a common fear about the ill intends of that enemy. But there is no "the muslim", just like there is no "the jew". The chassidiem are no more the representation of the common jew as the Wahabite the representation of the common muslim. There also is no "the Arab", if only because many of them are of different religious groups or of different tribes. You are talking about men and women, about young children, that are treated in an inhumane way.

"The real stuff"; you are even worse than Avi in your perception of the Arabs and the Muslims. As I stated earlier; I don't want to enter a discussion about the religions, since they do not matter. Even if all the Palestinians would have major celebrations (which they have not. Yet.) it still does not rob them of their "unalienable rights" nor does it stop the Israeli's from being responsible for the people in the Occupied Territories, according to international law and treaties.

And I did not say that they deliberately targeted civilians. My literal statement was "Since the Palestinian uprising started in late September 2000, more than 1,500 Palestinians, and 400 Israelis have been killed. If Israel tries really hard to avoid harming Palestinian civilians how come three times more palestinians have died? ".
yes, if they deliberately targetted to kill as many as possible many more would have died. They of course had to do that with the American material provided to them (as "development money", Israel gets more than the whole of the African continent) and one of the restricting agreements about the delivery of the weapons is that they may not be used for civilian killings.
But have you read about the most recent attempt to bring down a settlement in the Occupied Territories? Hundreds of colonists assembled in defense of the settlement (two buildings and three tents I think), and the soldiers are ordered to leave their weapons because otherwise people might get hurt in the heat of the moment.... but stone throwing kids can be killed (the soldiers are supposed to aim for their legs, but appearantly an awfull lot of them seem to bend their heads in front of their legs just at the wrong moment).
And now we have this beautiful roadmap. Mind you, I wouldn't mind if all potential terrorists, no matter which religion they held or from which part of the world they are, would die because their bombs exploded to early. Terrorists being people who targeted civilians; targetting militairs usually makes you a resistance group.
But to have an period of peace, you will have to start with a cease fire. And appearantly this comes as a surprise to the Israeli Government, but a cease fire that says "you stop killing us, and we will continue killing you" does not work. Starting a whole serie of assasinations at this time is not smart too - if you want peace. You will create more retatiation and start the whole violent cycle again.
I read everywhere that the roadmap called for disassembling the settlements; so far 11 have been dissassebled (8 uninhibited) and 8 have been re-established. And Sharon tells that there is no reason the settlements wouldn't grow...?? Did he get the same roadmap the others got?

I have busy times ahead, so I am not sure I can post much more. I'll finish with a quote from the site of the holocaust museum in the US:

http://www.flholocaustmuseum.org/framework/pdf/teaching%20history.pdf

In a study of the Holocaust, students can come to realize that
? democratic institutions and values are not automatically sustained, but need to be appreciated, nurtured, and protected;
? silence and indifference to the suffering of others, or to the infringement of civil rights in any society can, however unintentionally, serve to perpetuate the problems; and
? the Holocaust was not an accident in history; it occurred because individuals, organizations, and governments made choices, which not only legalized discrimination, but which propagated prejudice, hatred, and, ultimately, mass murder

? Study of the Holocaust assists students in developing understanding of the ramifications of prejudice, racism, and stereotyping in any society. It helps students
develop an awareness of the value of pluralism and encourages tolerance of diversity in a pluralistic society.
? Holocaust history demonstrates how a modern nation can utilize its technological expertise and bureaucratic infrastructure to implement destructive policies ranging from social engineering to genocide.
? A study of the Holocaust helps students think about the use and abuse of power, and the role and responsibilities of individuals, organizations and nations when confronted with civil rights violations and/or polices of genocide.
? As students gain insight into the many historical, social, religious, political, and economic factors, which cumulatively resulted in the Holocaust, they gain a perspective on how history happens and how a convergence of factors can contribute to the disintegration of civilized values. Part of one?s responsibility as a citizen in a democracy is to learn to identify the danger signals and to know when to react.

hi, marjolein

1) facts r nothing without motiv!
i quote u :

"Since the Palestinian uprising started in late September 2000, more than 1,500 Palestinians, and 400 Israelis have been killed. If Israel tries really hard to avoid harming Palestinian civilians how come three times more palestinians have died? ".

i wand to understand how your mind works so i will build sentence too

"Since the soviets invaded Finland in 1939, more than 25000 Russians, and 2750 finns have been killed. If Finns tries really hard to avoid harming Russians how come 10 times more
Russians have died? ".

the fact is that you will be allways wiht the weak

u were with israel when israel was weak in previous years (1940-50-60)
and when we were strong you become against us!!!

(check yourself on that, u will always come with the weak. the motiv is not important for you,
and this atitude is your problem...) that only time will cure...

strong is not allways guilty ... remember that...

2) about the numbers - may be you can check what is the percentage of israeli women & children from israeli casualties against palestinian women & children from palestion casualties!
u will be surprised...

3) about ISLAM... YOU SAY THIS NOT MATTER...
motiv is allways matter... this the BIG POINT!
u dont understand ISLAM. there is not political agenda in JUDAISM aiming other religions, ISLAM has...

4) do u have children?
if your daugther will want to marry Muslim, would u agree?

5)were u in Israel in the past?

6) i like people like u because they care for things, but i also want to explain u israel point of view , send me email to kondorrr@hotmail.com
and we will continue with more profound way our *arguing*

bye
avi

now i listen to the news: they say that mortar shell fired on israel from gaza.
i want to ask u why israel wont respond also with mortars. u know if we will do that they wont stay there, they will run and it will be good for us (if i believe u), why we need to send hellicopter and to shoot 200000$ rocket for one palestians that shoot the mortar. why?
because that what we are, island of humanity on muslim barbaric world... no more no less...
if we kill civilians they are bystanders and when they kill the target civilians ...
i have links to pictures of my dearest country men and women that were butchered in way to work in the bus. sitting dead in their sits looking toward the shops... black of burns. no heads , no hand... i can send u things i saw... but i do not want u you wake in the night.

i can send you if u insist ...

i know that you can (also) send pictures of palestinians but (again) there is a difference:
they were bystanders and us - we r targets
no because we occupairs (before 1967 they had it all) but because they r muslims (like those in holland... time bomb)

more news for u:
u r saying thar they want to make truce and ariel sharon do not want because he makes assissnations.
so here r the news:

"Large explosive device safely dismantled in Kafr Qassem on West Bank border 20 miles east of Tel Aviv Wednesday morning. Police hunt two Palestinian terrorists who infiltrated most densely populated Israeli region. In south, Qassam missile fired from Gaza damages car in Sderot"

and geuss who helping them with food and shelter in mosques: israely arabs of Kafr Qassem

why they want to blow another bus if they want truce?

You don't want to enter a discussion about the religions, since they do not matter to YOU. But Islamic Fundamentalism is very significant, real and common in this climate today and maybe it is your perception(or lack thereof) that is poor, not mine.
ISLAM is a huge HIDDEN agenda and phenomenon which is what you deny and even refuse to acknowledge the wide reaching ramifications of. If only you could see what the existing and new generations of Muslims are being INCULCATED and BRAINWASHED with at Mosques behind CLOSED DOORS -they are being taught to HATE, KILL and OUTBREED the "Infidel" - it starts from the earliest age possible. This institution is the hub of terrorist breeding and fund-raising activities inside and outside of the Western World, and is gathering incredible momentum. It doesn't discriminate among the different classes of Muslims - The Muslim brotherhood is just that... a One(1) brotherhood cause.
Just listen to how the Muslim youth of your country talk, whether or not they attend a private educational institution - it is not just isolated to Palestinian youth. I am not scare mongering as this is a very real pattern with long term detrimental outcomes (social and other). How can you not see this as a problem? Please WAKE UP!

There is no relevance here of Anne Frank in your comparison with the Arab-Israel conflicts.
Anne Frank's kind had NO "come-back" to their oppressors, but today, the Israelis DO have the option of defending themselves! But each time the Israels "come-back" to help their people, they are second-guessed by the world community!
The world community just label the IDF as Nazis, merely for propaganda + humiliation = anti-semitism.
Anyway Anne Frank's kind had no "Brotherhood" or "Sisterhood" lands to flee to - no one wanted them, not even their own compatriots who singled them out as "aliens". So Anne Frank is a bad parallel here.

You said: "But Israel's targeting of Palestinian civilians should stop too." So actually I DID quote you CORRECTLY. If Israel is targeting Palestinian Civilicans as YOU say, then obviously it must be DELIBERATE.
Then you compare absolute numbers of killed Palestinians and Israelis, well why don't you compare relative numbers by the Arab brotherhood aswell? Let's see ... 1500 Arabs out of 500 million Arabs, compared to 400 Israelis out of 5 million. But that would be too much thinking for you.
And to top it off, you throw in your catch-cry "refusenik".
Could you imagine if every Israeli stood by the refuseniks? If that many people were blissfully ignorant and plain-stupid, then there would be no Israel. (I guess you wouldn't expect your government to help you or your people in front of your "special" utopian ideals)

Blame it all on Israel and the IDF as usual - the Europeans are good at that. The UN too is good at pointing the finger at Israel - not to mention that the majority of UN nations are Islamic.

My above message is addressed to "marjolein"

Hi again marjolein,

It doesn't seem to matter just much land the Israelis give the Palestinians, each time they do so, the Palestinians want more and more. Even if it isn't land, but other concessions like returning imprisoned terrorists to their families, the terrorist organization Hamas will continue to suicide-bomb civilians making even more demands.
But of course, you just want the Israeli government to do nothing, instead of being proactive and taking an initiative. If the government does chose to do something about it to defend its people who elected them, then they are harshly scorned by the UN.

How can you ask any government to openly accept suicide attacks on its civilians as a normal occurence, denying them any self-defense?

Marjolein

I am not in anyway trying to make this a personal attack on you. Your postings are clear and concise and filled with facts that you have taken the time to research (Regardless of their source)

This said let me ask you a question.

If you are in a Tank and somebody runs up and starts shooting at you with AK47's and throwing Molotov cocktails at you WITH THE INTENT of killing you will you get out of your Tank and confront them face to face and make it a fare fight or will you do whatever it takes to keep yourself safe and do your job??

If somebody is trying to kill me I’m not interested in FAIR fights. I’m not interested in giving the other guy a chance. If this person decides to do this when surrounded by his own people and they get hurt/killed it’s certainly regrettable, but I will make sure that I’m alive to regret it. (The problem with the nuts doing this is they don’t regret it.)

Take this a step further. The Israelis (As with most western style nations) will try to reduce collateral damage BUT protecting their people/soldiers comes first. That may not be pretty. May not even be Just, but that's the way of the world.

If, in order to take out the folks responsible for attacking the civilians I’m responsible to protect, other folks get hurt I’m very sorry and I will regret it. That said the son’s and daughters of the folks who I’m responsible for sending into harms way will have every chance I can give them to come home. The person I’m attacking because he is responsible for trying to kill ALL Israelis, innocent or not, won’t be. This is Not Fair, Not Just but it is the way the way of the world (At least the western world)

As a father and an American Citizen I would rather it not be necessary to do it this way BUT I work to make sure that if ever My Son is called upon to go to battle to protect my nation and my way of life that there will be NOTHING FAIR OR JUST about the battle’s he will face. My Primary concern is MY NATION, MY PEOPLE, MY SON, and our ALLIES. Not Our Enemies. I will regret the innocent loss of life, I will work to minimize it. But in the end it’s these four things that must come first. The problem with the crazies doing these things is that they don’t regret the killing of Innocence, they don’t try to minimize it, they revel in it.

Point of View:
Is it Just or right for so many more Palestinian's to be killed during this violence?? No Not Really.

Is it Just or right to blame the Israelis for this fact?? No Not Really.

Have the person's who carry out these attacks confine themselves to going after the Israeli military?? Nope they chose to go after Civilian Targets. Ok, Do the Israelis then turn around and go after the Palestinian Civilians?? NOPE unfortunately the cowards responsible for these attacks (NOTE that it's not the Terrorist leadership blowing themselves up) decide that they must hide and shield themselves within the Palestinian Civilians making it almost certain that when Israel goes after them that bystanders will be hurt/killed.

Your remarks about the cease fire are well taken. Yes Sharon was/is an idiot for trying to take out folks while trying to maintain a ceasefire (Provided of course that no Intel was available that said they were about to attack) Correct me if I'm Wrong though but Hamas never agreed to the Cease Fire?? And the Hard Line Idiot who launched these attacks came to power as a direct result of the Palestinians resuming their attacks replacing a more moderate person??

HI, marjolein

ANOTHER NEWS FOR U, CONCERNING israel arabs

"Israeli Bezeq telephone worker is shot dead Thursday on high street of Israeli Arab village of Baq’a al Gharbiyeh . Killer is wounded in police pursuit."

u know in 90% of villages in arab world there is no phone lines.

we give it to them and kill u ... why?
because u r a jew!

bye bye for now

This is a belated remark for "Marjolein" -

Dear Marjolein hi - (I'm Dutch too - R'dam) but now living in Israel. The problem of "Westerners" is that everything is reasoned from within their own mentality. You hang yourself up on numbers and statistics, while, in fact, they don't mean a thing. Look for the source, if you would like to get to the roots of the problem.

All numbers and percentages you gave here are "results" - what is causing these "results"? I think you'd come a lot further if you would look at the virus causing all this i/o summing up its complications. Don't judge a people literally fighting for its existence. That's too easy to do while sitting in a comfortable armchair.

From your comment re. the visit of Sharon to the Temple Mount I see you are misinformed - those who read and watch BOTH sides in this dispute do not even mention that visit anymore, it being such a disgrace as to admit that they were (once again) fooled by Palestinian lies (the onset of this recent Intifada was planned at least half a year before said visit, as admitted by the Palestinian Interior Minister on Palestinian tv of which the video-clip is now circulating on the web).

Same goes for the "wonderful" work the ANWRA are doing (ever seen what's inside a Palestinian's second-grader's schoolbook?) with European monies. Pure incitement and certainly helping with the "education" for becoming a "shahid".

If you ever see this message, please take the time to look at the following :

http://www.free-lebanon.com/LFPNews/Witnesses/witnesses.html

And, especially this one:
http://www.honestreporting.com/relentless/

Rgds

I must say that I am more then happy to see this, I am from Israel and it is very rare to find understanding, it is good to hear that people from outside israel actually like Israel and understand it

It doesnt matter in the slightest, yes, a very good piece of work, You are a great writer. But we are fine in America where we are, why should we care about what ANYONE has to say/do in any other country? Were fine where we are, Who cares if they all hate us, they cant do anything about it. We are better, We will always win.

First off, I am a Jew. And a very proud Jew at that. I come from an extremely rich and beautiful history. I go to Shabbat services Friday evenings at sundown with guards patrolling the campus to protect us. The temple I was raised in was vandalized regularly by various members of the greater community. People make assumptions about my character as soon as they see the star of David I wear. I have been asked why we killed Christ, why I worship Satan (people don’t seem to realize there is a difference between a pentagram and a star of David), and various other hateful questions. I am amazed at the ignorance that the majority of the American population has regarding what Judaism is and what it means to be a Jew. You, my friend, are no exception. Never...ever...equate Judaism with Zionism. Your, um, shall we say interesting, version of history is one sided and ill informed at best. At worst, it is potentially damaging to anyone who believes your trite.

Let's do a quick history review of Zionism. The rise of the Zionist movement in the late 19th cent. was influenced by nationalist currents in Europe, as well as by the secularization of Jewish life in Eastern Europe, which led many assimilated Jewish intellectuals to seek a new basis for a Jewish national life. One such individual was Theodor Herzl, a Viennese journalist who wrote The Jewish State (1896), calling for the formation of a Jewish nation state as a solution to the Diaspora and to anti-Semitism. In 1897 Herzl called the first World Zionist Congress at Basel, which brought together diverse proto-Zionist groups into one movement. The meeting helped found Zionist organizations in most countries with large Jewish populations.

The first issue to split the Zionist movement was whether Palestine was essential to a Jewish state. A majority of the delegates to the 1903 congress felt that it was essential and rejected the British offer of a homeland in Uganda. The option of Argentina was also considered and discarded. The opposition, the Territorialists led by Israel Zangwill, withdrew on the grounds that an immediate refuge for persecuted Jews was needed. Within the Zionist movement a broad range of perspectives developed, ranging from a synthesis of nationalism with traditional Jewish Orthodoxy (in the Mizrahi movement, founded 1902) to various combinations of Zionism with utopian and Marxist socialism. (And before you get all knee jerk stupid about the use of the word socialism, actually read some text written by Marx. My guess is that you never have.)

Had the Zionist movement in it's formative years been responsive to the needs of the Jews and been willing to investigate less potentially volatile options, millions of lives might have been spared- then and now. Instead, they held fast to the idea that there was a God (we will discuss your misuse of the word “Jaweh” later…personal pet-peeve of mine) given mandate that Palestine was theirs. That belief alone is enough for me to disqualify their beliefs from being rooted in the Judaic tradition. One of the corner stones to the Jewish faith is that a persons relationship with God knows no physical restraints. The land in the middle east is no more or less holy then the land my house was built on in Portland Oregon. Why shred my brethrens blood over dirt? Was/is there a need for a Jewish nation-state? Yes. Should that’s nation-state’s location be used as a political mechanism for asserting a specific agenda? Absolutely not.

So back to the word “Jaweh”. Do you have any idea the origins of that word? When the Germans attempted to translate the Hebrew and Arabic texts into German, they were befuddled by the character that represented the concept of God. Rather then actually talking to any Jew and asking “So, what’s up with this word that can’t be pronounced?” they made a ‘best guess’. That guess was wrong. The concept of God is represented by three characters. Those characters stand of It was, It is, It will be. However, the Germans thought it was ywh, which if pronounced in German would sound like Jaweh which was then further bastardized into the word Jehovah. The entire point behind the representation for the word God was to reinforce a highly valued concept. The word can not and should not be spoke. To give the concept an audible name is to presume that we can understand and know what it is. We can not know God with that degree of intimacy. It shows a huge lack of respect and cockiness.

Before you go about toting the heroism of the Israeli state, learn what it is that they say they are protecting. After you do that, you will see how hypocritical their actions are. My suggestion is you start with a good review of ALL of Jewish history…not just circa 19th and 20th century. Look at the growth of the beliefs. Learn what the Diaspora was about, then and now. Figure out that a crime against humanity is a violation regards of who is doing it. And how incredibly insipid it is for any Jew, any where at any time to claim amnesty for their crimes on the basis that it’s either “us” or “them”. Do I believe that the Israelis are completely guilty and without any just cause? No. Do I believe that they are innocent and heroic either? Absolutely not. The ends never justify the means.

I think the word you're looking for is "tripe."

Your history is no less one-sided, with its complete lack of emphasis on the influence of the pogroms and persecutions of the 19th century on the Zionist movement. Regardless, I'd like to see a specific example of anything that I've said that is factually incorrect.

By your own admission the majority of Zionists wished for Israel to be in Palestine. To bemoan "might have beens" that weren't particularly popular to begin with smacks of a special kind of wishful thinking.

And when we talk about jerking knees, let's make sure that we keep our terms straight... Marxism, socialism, and communism, while related, are not the same thing. I'd love to borrow your copy of Das Kapital, but I get the feeling you'd have trouble sleeping at night if it weren't under your pillow.

As to Jewish words for "god", your story is quite a new one, and I must say tastes a bit of after-the-fact symbolism. Every other account I've read, and I've read several, follow this course:

The name most distinctive of God as the God of Israel is (Yahweh, a combination of the tetragrammaton (YHWH) with the vowels of 'Adhonay, transliterated as Yehowah, but read aloud by the Hebrews 'adhonay). While both derivation and meaning are lost to us in the uncertainties of its ante-Biblical origin, the following inferences seem to be justified by the facts:

(1) This name was common to religions other than Israel's, according to Friedr. Delitzsch, Hommel, Winckler, and Guthe (EB, under the word), having been found in Babylonian inscriptions. Ammonite, Arabic and Egyptian names appear also to contain it (compare Davidson, Old Testament Theol., 52 f); but while, like 'Elohim, it was common to primitive Semitic religion, it became Israel's distinctive name for the Deity.

(2) It was, therefore, not first made known at the call of Moses (Exodus 3:13-16; 6:2-8), but, being already known, was at that time given a larger revelation and interpretation: God, to be known to Israel henceforth under the name "Yahweh" and in its fuller significance, was the One sending Moses to deliver Israel; "when I shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said .... I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE .... say .... I WILL BE hath sent me" (Exodus 3:13,14 margin). The name is assumed as known in the narrative of Genesis; it also occurs in pre-Mosaic names (Exodus 6:20; 1 Chronicles 2:25; 7:8).

(3) The derivation is from the archaic chawah, "to be," better "to become," in Biblical Hebrew hayah; this archaic use of w for y appears also in derivatives of the similar chayah, "to live," e.g. chawwah in Genesis 3:20.

(4) It is evident from the interpretative passages (Exodus 3; 6) that the form is the fut. of the simple stem (Qal) and not future of the causative (Hiph`il) stem in the sense "giver of life"--an idea not borne out by any of the occurrences of the word. The fanciful theory that the word is a combination of the future, present and perfect tenses of the verb, signifying "the One who will be, is, and was," is not to be taken seriously (Stier, etc., in Oehler's Old Testament Theology, in the place cited.).

(5) The meaning may with some confidence be inferred from Origen's transliteration, Iao, the form in Samaritan, Iabe, the form as combined in Old Testament names, and the evident signification in Exodus 3 and other passages, to be that of the simple future, yahweh, "he will be." It does not express causation, nor existence in a metaphysical sense, but the covenant promise of the Divine presence, both at the immediate time and in the Messianic age of the future. And thus it became bound up with the Messianic hope, as in the phrase, "the Day of Yahweh," and consequently both it and the Septuagint translation Kurios were applied by the New Testament as titles of Christ.

(6) It is the personal name of God, as distinguished from such generic or essential names as 'El, 'Elohim, Shadday, etc. Characteristic of the Old Testament is its insistence on the possible knowledge of God as a person; and Yahweh is His name as a person. It is illogical, certainly, that the later Hebrews should have shrunk from its pronunciation, in view of the appropriateness of the name and of the Old Testament insistence on the personality of God, who as a person has this name. the American Standard Revised Version quite correctly adopts the transliteration "Yahweh" to emphasize its significance and purpose as a personal name of God revealed.

[emphasis added, citation]

I believe the word you're looking for in your final paragraph is "touting", not "toting". While neither an Israeli or a Jew, I am aware of the tensions between the various factions inside the country that would make its existence challenging if it were located on Mars, let alone in the center of a hostile medieval Arab crossroad. The intercine bloodsport that is Israeli politics requires, and has been given, whole books to understand completely, and as such will not be summarized here. Suffice to say that modern experience can be said to have shown correct the scholarly amazement at an ancient people willing and able to defy an omnipotent diety's direct commandments when they felt it suited them.

I am also quite aware of Jewish history from its prehistoric origins (last time I looked traced to around 2000 BCE) to the present. My knowledge of medieval jewry is probably the spottiest, but I'm working on that right now. Regardless, as your own account makes vibrantly clear, the secular state of Israel traces its origins back only to the end of the 19th century of the common era, and no further. The inclusion of "the rest of history", while instructive as background and to inform the motivations of the various parties, does not have direct bearing when compared to subsequent events.

And finally, when it comes to justifications for "crimes of humanity", I would like to ask what, exactly, your solution is?

I take a stand for Israel, because in that polarized climate a person standing in the middle of the road simply gets run over from both directions.

Hm, interesting how your 'emphasis added, citation' happened to be a Christian based web page...since we all know that Christians are so well informed on their Judaic history. So glad you emphasized that. I feel properly 'schooled' now.

You want citations? Okay, here's one from another Christian web page even: "According to the custom of many Jews, the name of GOD was too holy to either write or speak in everyday use. This notion was extrapolated from Deu 5:11…" (http://www.mindspring.com/~bab5/BIB/name.htm)
And since I found it on the web- it just HAS to be true, right?

And if you want to get petty and nitpicky- this is an interesting concept: I am also quite aware of Jewish history from its prehistoric origins. Do you see the irony there? History from its prehistoric origins... How exactly does that work?

My general point, which you seemed to not defend yourself against, is that Israel is not a Jewish state. In The Republic by Plato, he talks about how governments eventually become corrupt and no longer serve the needs of the people. Rather they become instruments to their own preservation. I believe the Israel has become that for Zionism. And rather quickly I might add.

In your rebuttal, you requested a specific example of a factual indiscretion… Okay, here’s a quotation from your original posting: When I was a kid, I learned about the Holocaust, and I learned about Israel. To me, the two became inextricably linked... very bad people had gathered up a bunch of other people and shot them and hung them and gassed them and burned them by the millions simply because they didn't like them very much. A country got set up by the people who survived to ensure it never, ever happened again.

As discussed in my previous posting, Zionism was alive and strong long before WWII. Jewish persecution did not begin with Hitler and will not end with the creation of a Jewish nation-state. The atrocities that happened during WWII can not be forgiven simply by conceding political legitimacy to a group of Jews. I’m glad that you can sleep better at night thinking that the creation of Israel makes the world a better place, but it doesn’t make me rest easy.

And really look at the creation of Israel. It wasn’t created to make sure that we don’t get “shot, hung, gassed and burned”. As you pointed out in your posting, land was purchased over an extended period of time, shifting the balance of power by ownership. The WWII crisis didn’t erupt for several years into that process. Why pick a region of the world that you know is going to be filled with turmoil if more reasonable options are available? Out of pride. Out of spite. ‘This land was promised to us by God.’

It was recognized by other countries because it looked like a reasonable compromise by people who didn’t truly understand the emotional investment they were making. It was a easy way to ignore the real problems. Come on. Historically, the people that decided “Sure, let’s recognize Israel as a country” were the same people that thought “Well, if we invade the folks down there and call it a holy war, they will totally convert!” Your entire notion that Israel’s existence will ensure the safety of Jews everywhere is ludicrous and dangerous. Israel does not protect me. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that it does. As soon as you think a solution has been reach, better solutions are not pursued.

And your most blatant and angering misconception? Well that prize goes to the following quotation: Understand that someone saying they're not against Jews, they're against Zionists is like someone saying they're not against Americans, they're against the United States. Again, Do Not EVER equate Judaism with Zionism. You have no concept of how demeaning that it. Not to mention incredibly stupid and ignorant. The idea that Jews are to Zionism as Americans are to the United States. Do you seriously not see how inane that is? If I really need to clap that one out for you, then there isn’t much point.

My point about looking beyond Zionism to understand the Jewish experience was in the hopes that maybe you will understand why I do NOT stand with Israel. Maybe if you understand what the Jewish experience has been like for centuries, you will understand how offensive it is that people would recreate those atrocities in the name of Judaism. The word Ghetto comes from Jews being forces to live in substandard neighborhoods, not allowed mobility outside of their community, not having jurisdiction over their own lands, being denied access to resources, being forced into careers and jobs that other’s considered ‘dirty’. So let’s see…Palestinians territories (with no roads connected them as agreed to in the Oslo and Camp David accords), territories that both parties have agreed on are being ‘settled’ by more Jews, not allowed free mobility in country without proper approval and documentation, patrolled by Jewish armed soldiers, lack of educational resources for Palestinian children, limitations on job opportunities…. See an similarities?

You asked for my solution to the problem. First, acknowledge the fact that Israel is NOT defending Judaism. They are defending themselves. And they are a group of expatriates coming from all over the world in the hopes of creating some utopia that isn’t going to happen. But they are willing to sacrifice everything to make that dream come true. Next, start dealing with them the same way you would any emerging country that has a bit of an indigenous peoples problem. Saddam Hussein didn’t like the Kurds that were living in his country so he killed them. When Slobodan Milosevic had that pesky non-serbian problem, he had some interesting tactics as well. The only real difference is that Israel has been more scrutinized from the beginning and haven’t had the chance to go that far. At least, we haven’t found any mass graves. Name one other country that we have made a comparable financial and political investment in that has been allowed to drag their problems on like this? I can’t think of any. Hell, Saddam may or may not have had a nuclear program and we invade his ass. Why is Israel any less worthy of occupation? Because they are a Democracy? Isn’t one of the founding principals of Democracy that the majority rule does not supercede minority rights (what a cite on that?-Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America)?

I agree mitchell, you should leave israel in piece and so should europe, no one asked you to mess things, let us work this out by ourseleves

Not comfortable in your own skin? That your own people could have their own place to call home?

>->-Your entire notion that Israel’s existence will ensure the safety of Jews everywhere is ludicrous and dangerous. Israel does not protect me. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that it does. As soon as you think a solution has been reach, better solutions are not pursued. ->- Again, Do Not EVER equate Judaism with Zionism. You have no concept of how demeaning that it.

www.dawnisacoward.com---damn, that's funny. Best laugh I've had all night. Anyway, I'm not exactly sure what your point is. I read you comment as saying that you are under the impression that I have some kind of self hate and don't think that Jews should have the political power that comes with the formation of a recognized nation-state. The two quotations you selected did not exact support that thesis, but that's okay. I'll let that slide.

On the self hate issue- um, I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion. It is because of my love for the tradition, for the beliefs, which I feel that Israel does not represent yet claims to, that I do not "stand with Israel". Israel is a gross misinterpretation of something incredibly beautiful. The fact that people will in their minds align me with that abuse is what I hate. The fact that Israel perpetrates the abuse in the first place is what I hate even more.

Pointing out the Judaism does not equal Zionism quotation...interesting choice. It's this little thing called a factual accuracy. But I can understand how someone who is trying to raise people's fears by inaccurately representing the reality might take offense to that.

Maybe I haven’t been very clear in my previous posting about where I do “stand”. At the time Israel was created, was there an international need for a Jewish nation-state? Yes, absolutely. Could those same needs have been met by forming said nation-state is a less political volatile environment? Yes, absolutely. Is there a continued need for a Jewish nation-state? Sadly, yes, there is. Where I don’t stand- Israel does not represent the will of the Judaic faith. Israel is so active attempting to create stability within their own borders that they don’t have the political means or power to address the needs of the greater Jewish community…which was one of it’s founding principles. I don’t agree that America should be piping Billions of dollars into a country that does not reflect our beliefs in support of basic human rights and equality. And I certainly don’t agree that we as an American community should take a passenger seat and watch these atrocities continue. They want the money and the political support? Then they need to get their act together just like any other country would.

If you ever get bored enough, please populate that dawnisacoward domain. That would be truly amusing. Hell, I’d even put that on my business cards.

What I get from reading all of this is that most people have an emotional attachment to this issue, and as long as they do their positions will be based on facts that fit their emotions.

There are facts that support both sides. Lately, the facts I see suggest to me that the *leaders* of Israel are committing atrocities against Palestinian civilians. But as soon as I say that some one will have an example of a Palestinian atrocity! I don't see how the tit-for-tat game will ever end. If you look at the numbers Israel has clearly killed more people in the conflict, but then people would suggest they have been military targets and not civilians. (Which is not accurate as each Israeli attack almost always includes the collateral damage of a child, woman, or elderly person)

I don't have the answer. I just wanted to say that taking sides seems ludicrous to me. I think the solution is for a new set of leaders to come to the table that recognizes wrongdoing on both sides and seeks to eliminate hatred and killing without recrimination, blame or sense of empowerment to run the process from one side or the other. Amateur historians may take sides, but more secure men (and women) need to move past thing to stop the killing. Just stop and LIVE.

The sad thing is, that there are plenty of leaders on the Israeli side who are devoted to peace. Peres, Ben-Eliezer, Barak... all these Israelis are willing to give the Palestinians anything they want, short of the destruction of Israel. Barak, in fact, almost did so, but Arafat rejected his offer, because Arafat would not give up his "right" to destroy Israel.

The problem is there are NO Palestinian leaders who will not seek the annihilation of Israel, and until there are, allowing a peaceful leader to come to power in Israel would be suicide for the Israelis.

I have to say today is the first day I read this and I'm going to bed since I work a third shift. I can say that the Isrealis are the Mid-East Americans. Working hard, kicking ass, and not even thinking of giving an apology to anyone they squash out of self defense. I have known Jews in places that I've lived and I have found them to be quite friendly and in support of Israel. I didn't know how if had formed and I'm glad I got this piece of history from you Scott. I know I didn't learn this in school at all. Damned bullshit political correctness running rampant like a horrible disease I think is partly to blame, politicians (not all of them mind you) are the other part to blame. Gryphon, I applaud you at trouncing that idiotic, coward sympathyzing piece of shit that is named Alex. We really don't need lying ass camel fuckers who only go about their lives with murder and cowardice to write history in their own way. We need the pure an honest truth. To Hell with the Palestinians and victory to the Israelis. Personally if I gained the powers of a comic/manga character with the abilities to fly and level anything short of a star for a day I'd clear out the area around Israel so that they all may know some peace for at least a short time. On top of that I'd also nail some other areas...... France looks like a good target. Tee hee hee.

I totally agree with Brad on his point. Most people in the US today would take the issue more personally than they should. Judgement is mainly based on the fact that they have met nice Jews and no Arabs before besides what seems to be points in common between Israel and the US.

There are over three palestinians that are killed by the Israeli army for every Israeli that is killed in a terrorist attack. You can find children, women and old people among the dead which clearly makes their being civillians undiscussable. There are also over 3000 paletinian homes that were demolished in the last two years. Read the Amnesty International latest report on the effect of Israeli occupation on Palestinians. The terrorist attacks in Israel didn't really start until about three years ago...But Israeli occupation was there for almost 40 years now and the political destiny of occupied palestinians has simply kept a status quo.

Also, the International Court of Justice in Lahague declared today that the barrier being built to separate Israel from the occupied territories is illegal. the decision is non-binding since Israel doesn't recognize jurisdiction from The ICJ but the decision was made by a a 14-1 vote decision...Funnily enough, the only person to think the wall is legal was an American judge. I don't think that claiming that all of the 14 judges would be anti-semitic and that the American judge is the only unbiased person would be a very smart and logical statement.

Clearly, Harm is being inflicted from both sides and there is a room to be sentimental and to write lengthy essays like Scott's for Palestinian supportes as well. The only way to come out of this mess to be perfectly logical and not to take anybody's side.

About the creation of Israel and how the "villian" Arabs don't want to accept this very harmless country amongst them, you failed to mention how the whole of the Arab peninsula was annexed by British and French colonizers after the sykes-picot agreement. Read Sir Edward Lawrence's book "Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph" (I provided the URL). It's a masterpiece story of a british agent living amongst Arabs before the fall of the Ottoman empire. Then the whole of the Arab peninsula was colonized in what seems to be an abuse of what Sir Edward described as the Arab people's poetic spirit. The British were the ones to start the creation of Israel by providing diplomatic and practical help to British Jews to create a country for them in what was called the land of palestine at the time. Scott mentioned how Jews understood the European system and how the Arabs didn't. My answer to you is this: Zionist Jews WERE europeans...The Arabs weren't.

After the World War II, room was made for this new country that was supposed to be a Jewish state which obviously meant that Arabs living there had to leave. Somebody points in his/her comments that land was being bought in today's Israel by Jews. As a matter of fact, the fraction of the land bought is almost negligeable compared the size of Israel and Arabs living in the rest of that land had to simply leave and look for refugee status elsewhere. Edward Said, a famous writer, was a christian palestinian and was one of these people...Google him. If anything, Arabs selling their lands to Jews at that time is a plus to Arabs because it shows that they didn't care if Jews owned land.

About how Israel was created after Jews were "shot hung gased and burned" the way you put it, you forgot to mention the fact that Arabs didn't have much to do with the Second World War and with the tragedy of the Holocaust. As a matter of fact, there are records of thousands of North African fighters (who happen to be Arab and Muslim) that died fighting against the Nazi Vichy regime in France. The UN solution satisfied one victim but created another. I am not giving any credit for that as being a reason for hatred, but Scott states the Holocaust and anti-semitism as being a reason for hatred against Arabs. I just wanted to point the fact that anybody can find a reason to feel abused and to hate if they really want to and the best way would be to be totally logical about things.

About how Palestine never existed, you could similarily argue that the US never existed before its independence either. It's not about reviving other countries that existed in the past because if it were so, no country would ever be born...It's simply about people and about finding the best way for them to live peacefully and to focus on social and economic development.

To sum up, I wish that dehumanization of Arabs and Muslims would be more detectable and that Americans would put themselves in Arab or Muslim shoes for a change. One person wrote in his/her comments: "I have no sympathy for palestinians". Just imagine what impact that statement would have had if it was something like "I have no sympathy for blacks" or "I have no sympathy for Jews." Obviously, you would have found a sea of responses to that comment but nobody seems to really mind when it's an Arab or a Muslim to be humilated. As much as I am angry against the terrorists, remember that 1 out of every 5 people on this planet is Muslim...So blaming all Muslims for terrorism is basically like blaming Hungary for something that happens in Argentina.

Hope nobody would get personal if he/she responds to my comment...Peace,

"Perfectly logical and not take anyone's side..."

Which, of course, only works when everyone else is being perfectly logical. If there were a perfect robot with perfect logic and perfect knowledge of the entire situation, it MIGHT be possible. I don't happen to have one of those, do you?

Naive, wouldn't you say?

"The whole of the arab penninsula colonized..."

Yes, of course, I must've missed all the English and French colonies still living Boer-like in the heart of Arabia. Blaming colonialism for the failure of Arab cultures to cope with modernity only works when you don't really know much about either.

"Obviously meant the arabs had to leave..."

Really? Again, I must've missed the trains stuffed full of palestinians, herded on board by the Israeli army. And of course that event when Israel denied full citizeship to any arab still within its borders.

"Satisfied one victim but created another..."

Yes, I also forgot that the Arab world went straight to the UN when Israel was formed, staying there peacefully appealing ever since, and didn't start a war in 1947, 1967, and 1973 to try and crush the state of Israel by force. Missed it completely.

"Totally logical about things..."

Of course, logic is the obvious answer! I'm sure people who are willing to strap bombs to their children to go blow up other children will be completely and immediately convinced to stop if we just spoke logically to them!

"put themselves in Arab or Muslim shoes..."

You mean like Richard Ried's shoes? Mohammed Atta's shoes? No thanks.

"1 out of every 5 people on this planet..."

Which means 4 out of every 5 are not. 10 out of 10 of the past decade's terrorist acts been perpetrated by Arabs.

The rest is so staggeringly naive I simply have no answer.

Hi Avi,
Have you found Jonathan's parents yet? If not, i can give you the address. My parents lived with them in Nes Ammim, and they still have contact.

The discussion is somewhat old. but yesterday there was a tv progamm on Jonatan Vermeulen on Dutch TV, in that programm they mentioned that jonatan was burried in a kibbutz in the North (I have been a volunteer in Kfar Giladi twice, I wanted to find out where he was burried.
The programm can be seen at on the internet, but I could´t give the link, otherwise, this message will not be posted. The program is called Ik Mis Je. Enter it in your search engine.

Robert
São Paulo

Well said.
it is good to hear support for Israel
Thank you

I totally agree with Brad on his point. Most people in the US today would take the issue more personally than they should. Judgement is mainly based on the fact that they have met nice Jews and no Arabs before besides what seems to be points in common between Israel and the US. Or judgement is based on the fact that Israel is a legitimate country that has been continually attacked by it's neighbors since it's inception. That might have something to do with it.

There are over three palestinians that are killed by the Israeli army for every Israeli that is killed in a terrorist attack. You can find children, women and old people among the dead which clearly makes their being civillians undiscussable. There are also over 3000 paletinian homes that were demolished in the last two years. Read the Amnesty International latest report on the effect of Israeli occupation on Palestinians. The terrorist attacks in Israel didn't really start until about three years ago...But Israeli occupation was there for almost 40 years now and the political destiny of occupied palestinians has simply kept a status quo.

Uhmm - no. Not even close to correct on the terrorist attacks. Those have been going on since Israel demonstrated that they weren't going to be pushed into the sea by their neighbors. That's roughly when Arafat came to power and started his terrorist attacks.

Also, the International Court of Justice in Lahague declared today that the barrier being built to separate Israel from the occupied territories is illegal. the decision is non-binding since Israel doesn't recognize jurisdiction from The ICJ but the decision was made by a a 14-1 vote decision...Funnily enough, the only person to think the wall is legal was an American judge. I don't think that claiming that all of the 14 judges would be anti-semitic and that the American judge is the only unbiased person would be a very smart and logical statement. Actually, it could very well be true - without listing the judges and their prior decisions, it's quite possible that there is antisemitism involved.

That aside, what should Israel do? Her people are constantly attacked by suicide bombers sneaking into her markets and busstops, nightclubs and stores. Why shouldn't they put a wall up to control access? And why aren't border walls everywhere declared illegal?

Clearly, Harm is being inflicted from both sides and there is a room to be sentimental and to write lengthy essays like Scott's for Palestinian supportes as well. The only way to come out of this mess to be perfectly logical and not to take anybody's side. Not if you've actually studied the matter, there isn't. Once all facts are considered, it's pretty obvious who tried to be peaceful and who didn't.

About the creation of Israel and how the "villian" Arabs don't want to accept this very harmless country amongst them, you failed to mention how the whole of the Arab peninsula was annexed by British and French colonizers after the sykes-picot agreement. Read Sir Edward Lawrence's book "Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph" (I provided the URL). It's a masterpiece story of a british agent living amongst Arabs before the fall of the Ottoman empire. Then the whole of the Arab peninsula was colonized in what seems to be an abuse of what Sir Edward described as the Arab people's poetic spirit. The British were the ones to start the creation of Israel by providing diplomatic and practical help to British Jews to create a country for them in what was called the land of palestine at the time. Scott mentioned how Jews understood the European system and how the Arabs didn't. My answer to you is this: Zionist Jews WERE europeans...The Arabs weren't. It was considered normal for the conquering power at the time to take over the territory and administer as they saw fit. That's how all of the countries we have today came about. The French and the British took the lands from the Ottoman Empire. It happens - they also took land from many others. However, what you're failing to mention is that the original Jews, when they got their homeland back, offered to actually have a ruling council with Arabs and Jews on it and administer Jerusalem in a peaceful manner. The Arabs response? Attack. Over and over again.

After the World War II, room was made for this new country that was supposed to be a Jewish state which obviously meant that Arabs living there had to leave. Somebody points in his/her comments that land was being bought in today's Israel by Jews. As a matter of fact, the fraction of the land bought is almost negligeable compared the size of Israel and Arabs living in the rest of that land had to simply leave and look for refugee status elsewhere. Edward Said, a famous writer, was a christian palestinian and was one of these people...Google him. If anything, Arabs selling their lands to Jews at that time is a plus to Arabs because it shows that they didn't care if Jews owned land. Absolutely not the case. The Arabs didn't have to leave - they could stay and sell their land if they liked. The Jews weren't forcing them out of Israel.

About how Israel was created after Jews were "shot hung gased and burned" the way you put it, you forgot to mention the fact that Arabs didn't have much to do with the Second World War and with the tragedy of the Holocaust. As a matter of fact, there are records of thousands of North African fighters (who happen to be Arab and Muslim) that died fighting against the Nazi Vichy regime in France. The UN solution satisfied one victim but created another. I am not giving any credit for that as being a reason for hatred, but Scott states the Holocaust and anti-semitism as being a reason for hatred against Arabs. I just wanted to point the fact that anybody can find a reason to feel abused and to hate if they really want to and the best way would be to be totally logical about things. No, they didn't create a victim at all. To say so is incredibly naive. The Arabs turned themselves into victims by attacking, then losing and not learning the lesson. Most countries learn that when you attack and lose, you've lost. Give up and get over it. Arafat and the other leaders, in their continual refusal to come to the bargaining table in an open and honest manner, their inability/refusal to control their populace as the leader of any state should, and their constant support of attacks on Israel is what made Palestine into a crap hole.

About how Palestine never existed, you could similarily argue that the US never existed before its independence either. It's not about reviving other countries that existed in the past because if it were so, no country would ever be born...It's simply about people and about finding the best way for them to live peacefully and to focus on social and economic development. And considering the Palestinians and other Arabs have initiated the attacks and rebuked every peace offer, it seems that they've no real desire to live in peace...

To sum up, I wish that dehumanization of Arabs and Muslims would be more detectable and that Americans would put themselves in Arab or Muslim shoes for a change. One person wrote in his/her comments: "I have no sympathy for palestinians". Just imagine what impact that statement would have had if it was something like "I have no sympathy for blacks" or "I have no sympathy for Jews." Obviously, you would have found a sea of responses to that comment but nobody seems to really mind when it's an Arab or a Muslim to be humilated. As much as I am angry against the terrorists, remember that 1 out of every 5 people on this planet is Muslim...So blaming all Muslims for terrorism is basically like blaming Hungary for something that happens in Argentina.

Palestinians aren't a race. Therefore, your comment about the blacks is irrelevant, no? On top of that, most people don't blame the Muslims for terrorism. They realize that it's a particularly small group of Muslim fundies that have decided to try and bring the world back to a stone age, eliminate a sovereign country, attack innocent civilians as a means of getting their message out, and generally create havoc wherever they go. If they'd simply work in peaceful methods and be willing to make appropriate compromises, like the rest of the world, none of this would need to happen.

In short - don't attempt to transfer the blame of one particular minority to the entire group. Nor should you attempt to assume that supporters of Israel or others do so, either.

Hope nobody would get personal if he/she responds to my comment...Peace,

It's nothing personal here - it's simply that you don't seem to have truly studied the situation as much as you might imply.